Parker Hale Bullet woes

[robertdeans72]

Hi all,
I was wondering if any have some advice/stories/experience with the Lyman 575213PH round.... If have not been able to get a consistant group with them. I have tried them sized to 575 and 577, with loads varying from 40 -60 gr FFg and they are lubed with shortening and beeswax. Help!
Rob

 

[Gary]

I'm not familiar with that mold. Is it a round ball mold and not a minie? RBs don't work well in Parker Hale Enfields. This child found out the hard way. :redface:

BTW, I have a Parker Hale mold that was made by RCBS and it casts a 535 grain minie. With 60 grains FF, it seems to shoot pretty well with SPG lube.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Nah Rob,
I think you got a junker...send that thar rifle over to me and I'll dispose of it for you. :grin: :grin:
Best Regards
Old Ford

 

[jdstrang]

Standard question but I have to ask it -- are you using pure, soft lead? Only such lead shoots well in minie rifles.

 

[windwalker_au]

rob i had a ph 1861 muskatoon and shot a rcbs .577 mini with a thick skirt it was 625 grn and was a tack holer. fill the hollow base with lube give that a try. also the std service load was 80 grn of powder thats what it said in the booklet i got with mine.and as popa bear said you must use pur lead in minis, try some rooster red black powder 7 lube it's good stuff and has a high melt point 200f.
bernie :thumbsup:

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

That's odd. I've had 2 Parker Hale musketoons one of which shot the 575213PH with lazer like accuracy, and another which shot it well, but actually peformed better with the 575213AV. I also have a 2 band that refers the AV. The PH & AV are the same mould incidently, the base plug is simply longer on the AV. Contact Lyman and see if you can purchase just the AV base plug, and try shooting those.

Have you glass bedded the barrel? For what's it's worth I've never seen a banded gun shoot well that wasn't bedded. Bedding will reveal the guns true accuracy potential.

What model Parker Hale are you shooting? I must say I've never been able to shoot the P53 well. It has a slower twist than the P58 and musketoon, but more significantly it has the rear sight much closer to the shooters eye. (The musketoon rear sight is also set too far back, but for some reason I shoot those better)

You should be achieving optimum accuracy with about 45 grains of powder. For hunting you can shoot something in the 60 grain range, but for bullseye shooting 42-47 grains of powder should be cutting one hole at 50 yards.

Having mentioned that you are sizing the bullets to 575 and 577 I must say that I can't load a .577 through any of mine. The bore is exactly 577, thus a .577 bullet won't fit. 575 loads easily for me and shoots very accurately too.

 

[arquebus]

Not sure on the weight of your Minies, but I haven't had much success with 2Fg in my rifle-muskets. For some reason or another they prefer 3Fg. Was using 55gns of Goex 3Fg for years with very good results, but have recently changed to 50gns Swiss 3Fg which seems to be slightly more consistent. I think the PH-design Minies may have a thicker skirt & the increased pressure with 3Fg might help bumping them out a bit better.....who knows, but it's worth a try.

 

[robertdeans72]

Thanks to all!!!!

To answer some of the questions that you graciously asked.....

Its an English made Parker Hale 1858 Naval Rifle with 1-48 twist, progressively rifled barrel
Yes, the bullet is a minie
Yes, they are pure lead
No, I have not tried 3f in this rifle (but I will now)
No, I haven't been filling the bottom of the bullet with lube (but I'll try that too!)
I have been shooting mainly 60 gr charges but I have experimented with ones as low as 40.
The bullet has a very thin skirt and I was wondering if even 60 gr is deforming it?
To have said that the bullet was sized to 577 was a bit misleading. I've run them through a 577 sizing die to take off the excess lube and there have been some small parts of various rounds that have been rubbed by the die. A 575 die marks much more of the sides, of course!
I'll try the 3f (I have some handy) and see if that makes a difference.
The rifling seems to be in good nick. It is all bright with no pitting or any other marks to speak of.

Thanks,
Rob

 

[mike alexandre]

You need to check the exact bore size of the PH and size your slugs to fit. You should try 54 grains of FF2 and possibly a 20 guage card wad under the bullet to stop gas blowing by as the bullet expands. As for lube, try non salted lard or stumpies moose snot or Moose Marrow. Patch ball does work in PH.

 

[Bearbait2]

Mr. justmike,
Please excuse my ignorance and perhaps lack of experience but how is the bullet going to expand if the gas can not get to the base of the minnie "skirt" and expand it accordingly?
Are you counting on the "bump-up" factor during acceleration of the soft, pure lead slug down the bore?
Thank you for sharing.
Best Wishes

 

[faw3]

I didn't find that mould also? In my short PH I use the smooth side org style 530 grs and 70 grs 2f, and it works great. fred :hatsoff:

 

[robertdeans72]

Where did you get the smooth sided mold?
Rob

 

[n8dawg6]

You need to check the exact bore size of the PH and size your slugs to fit.

this is it. my 1858 ph would not shoot reliably until i went to a .580 mold and ran the bullets thru a .577 sizer. they were just a little too undersized before. the improvement in accuracy was dramatic.

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

If it's a Parker Hale the bore should be .577. A minie .002 or .001 undersized should shoot the most accurately. If you have a .580 bore, you probably have either a Euroarms or Armi Sport and a .578 should perform well.

 

I'm an nssa shooter and shoot for accuracy. Most shoot 3F. A heavy charge will blow a skirt out. Jim Leinike chronographed 45 gr 3F behind a 510 gr rapine @ 950 fps. Very close to one of the militay loads. My brother has shot many deer w 45 gr 3F at close ranfe w 325 gr minie and claims the ball went clean through every one.I use 45 gr 2F behind the heavy ball due to an article I read in the skirmish line and for the life of me can no longer remember the reason. I size to 1.000th under bore size. You will likely need some site work once you get a group. A buddy of mine shoots clay pigions w a parker hale from the bench at 200 yds w 45 3 510 load.. Good shootin.

 

[robertdeans72]

Thanks to all for your input. Your experience always helps me through the growing pains that pop up from time to time. A couple of more questions;

In looking for a bullet with fairly deep grooves that will handle a range of sizing I saw the Rapine International. Anybody with experience?

How do you know if your bore is leaded? AS I was thinking that maybe I've inadvertantly done that.

Thanks
Rob

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

Rapine makes a highly respected product, however the blocks are aluminum and I've always gotten better results with the Lyman 575213PH, AV, or OS.

If you're shooting 45 grains of powder, behind a properly lubricated bullet leading shouldn't be an issue. For lube I like a 50/50 mix of beeswax and wonder lube. I'm obsessive however, and after cleaning the musket I always follow with a patch soaked in Hoppe's #9, which I allow to "set" while I clean the exterior of the musket. When the exterior of the gun is nice and clean, I swab the bore with patches until dry, and follow with a patch liberally lubed in either Ballistol or WD40. I've never had a problem with leading, but I only shoot a thousand rounds per year.

The Hoppes#9 does a great job of removing lead, if in fact there is any lead to be removed. If your gun suffers from poor accuracy, I would think leading is the least likely suspect. Glass bed the barrel first, and see if the gun still groups poorly.

 

[robertdeans72]

I've got a a 575213OS and a 575213PH, what does AV stand for? I went shooting the other day and worked on some FFFg loads 40, 45 and 50 gr with the PH round. Disappointing still, though the fouling was considerably reduced.
Thanks, Rob

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

Got me, but that's what is stamped on the mould. The OS casts a 460 grain bullet which I find to be the easiest to cast. The PH casts a 566 grain bullet with a shallow base, and the AV is the same mould at the PH with a deeper cavity, and thus a lighter 510 grain weight.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

As has been advised, check your bore dimensions. I have an at-least-third-hand 1st generation P-H Pattern 1858 repica, and was gifted by a friend with a supply of 575213PHs he had left-over from a musketoon he had traded off (which trade he now regrets - wants another). I've only had it out once, and was very frustrated. Trying 60-90gr of Goex 2F & 3F, groups at 25M were patterns with some oblong holes (tumbling!) until I got to 90gr FFFg, where it started to look a little like a group. Long story short, it turns out that my bore, at least at the muzzle, is .582-.583, and the .575s were WAY too small for accuracy. I suspect a prior owner get carried away with abrasives to remove leading, likely more than once.

To try a better fit to bore, I now have some .570 round balls, some Great Plain hunters (recommended by the previous owner over 100gr Pyrodex RS), some Maxi Hunters (both have band diameters stepping up to .585 or .587 at the front), and will be paper-patching some of the remaining miniés. I'm hoping to get out a couple of weekends from now and see what what I can get it to do. I got some 24ga O/S cards to try under the flat-base conicals. I may also have a few Maxi Balls and Lee REALs by then to try, too.

Good luck,
Joel