Opinion on Repro Muskets

[kration]

Hello board,
I'm looking for opinions on two reproduction Muskets as offered by "The Descriminating General" in Canada. The guns are the French Mod 1728 Infantry musket and also the 1766 Charleville.
Anyone with insights on these guns/vendor please do let me know. I'm purchasing with the intent to use them for some live shooting and future Living history.
Kration

 

[Grenadier1758]

I guess that I would also look at the other offerings from Middlesex Village Trading company or Loyalist Arms. I've liked the looks of these better than the Discriminating General. The DG is a little too highly polished and the touch hole is not drilled.

The MVT 1717 is more documented for use in the F&I war and the Rev War. The 1728 was used mainly in Europe. MVT guns have the touch hole drilled and the Long Land Patterns have held up well to shooting. I have a Long Land Pattern from Loyalist Arms that is a good shooting gun. Bear in mind that all of the guns imported from India can benefit from lock tuning and wood shaping.

 

[kration]

Mike,
Thank You very much for the info !
Would you happen to have a point of contact for the MV Trading company ? I already have Loyalists website..
Thanks again for any help

Kration

 

[Rebel]

Check here for MVT[url] http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com[/url]/

 

[mrbortlein]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Fusil De Chase models that some of these sites offer?
mrbortlein

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The Fusil de Chasse was a light and slender gun and quite elegant in my opinion. I'm not certain that any of these adjectives can be applied to these imports.

 

[Mike Brooks]

The Fusil de Chasse was a light and slender gun and quite elegant in my opinion. I'm not certain that any of these adjectives can be applied to these imports.

Well, that was very kind..... :haha:

 

[cricket]

This is just a general opinion on the MVTC offerings. I own two of there guns and have been quite pleased. While they are a little rough in finish, they are solid in construction and materials. I have also owned one other india made from the TOTW. Again very solid in construction but lacking the finish of say a pedersoli. The india made guns are good shooters,but not things of beauty. Better than any of my spanish guns though!

 

[Parzifal]

I have stuff from the Descriminating general....There customer service is none existant and their muskets are VERY VERY ROUGH bordering on crude...I myself will NEVER do buisness with them again.

Having just finished my 1st reinactment this weekend and having handeled many guns there, I have noticed this...A indian musket is much heavier, I brought my 1st model bess I built from a loyalist kit and had nothing except compliments as to her fit and finish but those who handeled her all said she was heavy.. But I had ABSOLUTLY ZERO misfires , even after trodging through streams and many loose powder shots.I thouroughly love and trust this gun 100 %

That being said though some of the piedersolis I handeled that were assembeled from kits turned out very nice in my opinion, thus I have sent for one of the discounted bess kits from dixie.

With some work your indian musket will be a very relyable shooter and a tough and fine looking arm "though heavy".

Just watch where you get it from as each company has its own producer in india.I have myself dealt with Loyalist and can attest as to their fine service and I have heard from many gents here that middlesex has some good muskets aswell.

But for a short period you can get a 2nd shortland bess kit from dixie for 600$$ which is a damn good price!

Cheers.

Rob

 

I have handled the "fusil de chasse" from India and they are, to be truthful, VERY crude and clunky. Some of the military muskets I have seen are OK, but not this fusil IMHO.

 

[Okwaho]

Agreed especially as to the Discriminating General although ALL these guns need wood removal.The French guns especially were everything Mike said. My son just bought a British heavy dragoon from MTV and seems very pleased with it. I haven't seen the gun but we have already made arrangements with my fine feathered friend to slim it down.The degree of surplus wood seems to vary from gun to gun and I suspect that the intent is to put out a decent gun at an affordable price leaving the buyer to decide on wood removal and change of finish.Since many if not most folks haven't had the opportunity to handle old guns of varying types, wood removal is a little foreign to them. A VERY seasoned builder of Kentucky rifles once told me that the biggest mistake made by many builders usually make two mistakes; they leave on two much wood and when decorating{carving and engraving}they don't when to stop.

I noticed some comment on the Dixie Japanese 2nd model{short land pattern} Bess being a good gun. I haven't seen one but he may be right. One problem with this gun is that it is incorrect for F&I war use.Although the short land pattern was introduced in 1744, it was for dragoons and wasn't introduced for infantry use until 1769.Kit Ravenshear used to convert these to long land pattern muskets with a "shortened" 42" barrel.
Tom Patton

 

[spudnut]

The MVT 1717 is more documented for use in the F&I war and the Rev War. The 1728 was used mainly in Europe.

I thought it was the opposite,Where did you get the info on this as I bought a 1717.I would love to document it for the Americas

 

[Okwaho]

The MVT 1717 is more documented for use in the F&I war and the Rev War. The 1728 was used mainly in Europe.

I thought it was the opposite,Where did you get the info on this as I bought a 1717.I would love to document it for the Americas

To answer this question it should be noted that French muskets prior to 1741 should be divided into two classes; Marine{Tulle} muskets and regular infantry muskets.The Tulle muskets were used until Tulle lost its contract with the King in 1741 after which muskets were bought from several armories primarily St. Etienne.They should be classified according to contract dates; 1696,1716,1729&1734,1743. These last ones were apparently made under the last contract date of 1741.
The regular infantry muskets are identified by model number as follows: Model 1717 which was the first regular infantry musket.It was followed by model number 1728&1746,1754,1763,1763-66,1770-76,1777,1816,and 1822.

The marine muskets were issued to the Compagnies Franche until 1741 when Tulle lost its contract with King,after which the the Ministry de la marine increasingly bought its muskets from ST.Etienne and these were similar to the regular infantry model 1728.There is apparently no record of the Model 1717's being used in Canada.
See"The French Soldier in Colonial America" by Renee Chartrand" PP.19-21
Some parts have turned up and an occasional specimen of the Model 1717 will turn up but no widespread usage in America has been noted.If you are doing F&I War either as a member of the Compagnies Franche or regular infantry{as per Louisbourg etc.} the models 1728 and 1746 would be the proper weapon.Military Heritage and Loyalist Arms offer the Model 1728 and MMTVC offers the model 1717 which isn't really correct for F&I but could perhaps be modified in some way.

I hope this helps clear up some cobwebs.
Tom Patton

 

[rickystl]

Hi Okwaho. I also purchased a Heavy Dragoon from MVTC. The pistols don't seem to have all the extra wood that the longarms do. At least mine did not. The only problem I had was that the hammer, with a flint installed, would not allow the frizzen to close completely while at half-cock. I sent the lock back to MVTC and they made a quick fix and returned it to me in one week. Really good service. Since I don't have the skills, I sent the pistol to Mike Brooks for antique finishing. WOW! what a difference. To the untrained eye, it now looks like a well cared for antique. It looks and shoots great now. It's hard to believe the locks are actually forged. But they are. Anyway, good luck with your son's pistol. Rick. :grin:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Here's the pistol Rick speaks of.

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Pretty incredible amount of work actually. By the time I removed the extra wood all the relief carving was gone, I had to reinlet the trigger guard deeper as well as the thumb escution. The wood is akin to balsa, easily the softest wood I've ever worked. As you can see the inletting around the barrel tang is still very sloppy, not much I could do about it. In fact, the inletting looked like it had been done with a dull screw driver.....
The barrel is dated 1979!

 

[Roy]

I re-did a musket from them some time last year. I ended up taking atleast 1/4" off from the sides and bottom/top of the gun. The wood reminded me of some sort of teak. Loaded up the rasps and files with a few passes. All in all I might have been working on a bad kit and it still weighed a ton when I was finished.

 

On the wood--whatever it is--it is soft and weak. A reenactor at Jean Baptiste had one of the India French muskets and leaned it against the wall of a building. It fell over onto a relatively soft grassy lawn and snapped at the wrist. Maybe it just landed wrong, but the wood leaves alot to be desired. Someone might be able to make some money by putting out some decent stock blanks cut to fit the India metal ware...for restocking.

 

[mrbortlein]

Tom, you said that "If you are doing F&I War either as a member of the Compagnies Franche or regular infantry{as per Louisbourg etc.} the models 1728 and 1746 would be the proper weapon.Military Heritage and Loyalist Arms offer the Model 1728 and MMTVC offers the model 1717 which isn't really correct for F&I but could perhaps be modified in some way."
So, in your opinion, IF one HAD to get one of these guns, the 1728 would be the lesser of two evils.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Mike, I wonder if the dimensions of the metal parts are consistent enough to allow a run of blanks to be made? The guns I've seen all looked like they were made up from random sized parts.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Mike. Thanks for the pics!!! Yes, I am real pleased, to say the least. It's been an interesting experiment. Of course I could never end up with these results if I tried this myself. :rotf: The brass in the photo now looks even better since I rubbed some burnt powder over it. You dulled the brass down enough to make this easy. The brass is now starting to take an aged look. The aged patina look you put on the steel parts looks great! Again, thanks so much for posting the pics. :thumbsup: And now, I await delivery of the English Lock Dragoon Pistol from you. :grin: Rick.