Nelson Lewis Buggy Rifle - History Mystery

[Big6ft6]

Couple more questions.

1) What are the two holes in the top of the wooden support block? (photo below) This block came in the box and is clearly for supporting/stabilizing the gun, but why the two holes? Was something attached over the top? It would seem with such a short rear sight anything over the barrel would interfere with the sight window?

2) Suggestions for competent antique gunsmiths in Wisconsin? (or nearby? Illinois?)

 

[Big6ft6]

Also shown in Flayderman's Guide is a Allen Thurber & Co. Target pistol with a removable stock and false muzzle which is similar to your gun.

Zonie, thanks for the thoughts! I hadn't come across the Allen pistol in flaydermans (It is a BIG book I've been too busy staring at the N. Lewis buggy rifle entry). Very cool to see the resemblance and facinating to consider possibilities of gun makers copying each other. I wish there was a way to identify though something else, like the box or marking on the lock or??

 

[Big6ft6]

Here is a pic of the N. Lewis barrel markings

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I'm envious, a great find. :hatsoff:

 

[Big6ft6]

Thanks Blizzard! :grin:
It has been many years in the making, Even as an adult when I'd go visit my grandparents, after they were asleep, I would sneak down in the basement and very gingerly remove this box from the back of the closet. I felt like I was in an Indiana Jones movie and fiding the "secret ancient gun". Years ago when I first found it I thought it was a "priate" gun!

None of the other grandkids know of the guns existence. I made careful passive offers a few times, but I think fear of unfairness to other family members who might someday find out made my grandpa hesitate. But his illness and his last tax return has made him think harder and he called up a month ago and said if I was still interested he'd sell it to me. On a side note I also bought from him a pristine Smith and Wesson DA Frontier Model in .44-40 with target sights. Very few in the family even knew these guns existed.

 

[JLDee55]

You might see about contacting the NRA gun museum for any info...Just a thought..I've been to their website and they have a ton of stuff and info..

 

[Big6ft6]

Thanks BP! I will definitely look into it.

On another note I've been reading more of Ned Roberts book and I'm dismayed to learn about all the "necessaries" that likely would've come with this gun that are no longer present.

The bullet mold, swage, patch cutter, bullet starter, powder measure, etc. It sounds like these craftsman gun makers would spend considerable time fine-tuning the bullet and charge the worked best in each gun before fabricating these accessories to match the most accurate combination.

It would likely be a long painfully expensive process to recreate these missing accessories. Do people do this?

 

[Many Klatch]

There are folks out there that do all that you have mentioned. Remember, this is a hobby that is supposed to be fun.

Picket ball guns can be extremely accurate, but there is a learning curve. I have never shot one so I am just talking about what I have read. A picket ball, sometimes called a sugar loaf ball, was basically a pointed round ball. Getting the ball loaded required precise positioning so that the point of the picket ball was exactly in the center of the barrel. Swaging of the balls isn't all that hard. It requires a hardened steel block with the correct sized opening and a hammer.

If you look at shooting this gun as a trip back through history and as a journey not a trip, then you will get a lot of enjoyment out of the ride. If you expect to load this up and shoot it like a new cartridge gun then you will experience a lot of frustration.

Many Klatch

 

[cynthialee]

WHere ever you found that gun, go back and look behind where it was stashed. Looked around, I betcha that some of the stuff is stashed somewhere.

 

[Big6ft6]

Many,That makes sense. I was just reading the chapter last night about how critical it is to line up the bullet precisely with the bore of the gun and how these bullet starters were so carefully designed with the plunger matching the tip of the bullet to keep it precisely centered during the starting process.

Even after reading this however, i was still shocked at the shape of the "sugar loaf" bullets in the following pages of the book. They almost looked like elongated Hershey kisses..there was very little "body" to the bullet just a cone shape, very fascinating!

Re: Cynthia..yes I will do what I can, unfortunately the final resting spot where I found the gun is quite clean, it would've been moved to this location in 1960's after spending the previous better part of a century on the family farm. We still own the farm, but it has been rented out for 50 years. I will go back to the "bee cellar" and root around, my grandpa seemed to think that was worth doing. I would love the scavenger hunt! Unfortunately it is 2+ Hours away and has been harder and harder to get free time to go up there with my new young family. But I need to do it.

 

[Ed Wingenroth]

Regarding the "Support Block", in my minds eye, I see it at the end of the Barrel with a top strap (relieved for the front sight) to secure the assembly... Early "Sled"... :idunno:

Keep Looking & Good Luck !!!

Ed....

 

[mhb]

The picket bullet was designed with little bearing surface: essentially a round ball with a pointed nose attached, though some of them had a more-or-less flat base. The bullet was designed so that it could be used with a linen patch - if it had a significant parallel-sided body, the patch could not fold up around the bullet.

The swage was designed to compress the cast bullet, thus closing-up any small voids in the casting and insuring that the bullets were all of the same shape. The swage consisted of a cylindrical body shaped inside to the dimensions of the desired finished bullet, hardened and polished, and a base punch. The swage body was not open at both ends, but sometimes had a small air hole at the nose. The cast bullet was weighed, very lightly oiled, dropped nose-first into the swage body, the base punch inserted and the punch given a number of hard whacks with a hammer. The punch was then removed and the swage body inverted and tapped on its nose with a wooden mallet or stick of hardwood - if all went right, the bullet dropped out of the swage. Sometimes the bullet stuck, which led to adventures in extended vocabulary. Bullets were carefully weighed by the user, and only those of nearly the exact same weight were used for serious target shooting.

Because of the shape of the bullet, and the fact that it had no parallel-sided body, an additional accessory was required in loading: the straight starter. This was an item which looks rather like a short starter, but which had a working end sized and shaped to receive the nose of the bullet and seat it straight and central in the bore of the rifle, in which the false muzzle helped a great deal. Hunting rifles used with the picket bullet were not usually fitted with a false muzzle, but still shot accurately when the straight starter was correctly made and used.

The best contemporary explanation of the rifles, equipment and procedures is likely 'Instructions to Young Marksmen - Improved American Rifle', by John Ratcliffe Chapman, originally written in the mid-1840s, and reprinted in 1976 by Bienfeld Publishing, Inc. It may still be in print, but you should be able to find a copy, which is well worth having.

mhb - Mike

 

[Big6ft6]

Thanks Mike and Ed!

"Adventures in extended vocabulary"... :rotf: I can imagine..

I can visualize making a straight starter for this gun...just need to add a lathe to the tool collection or pester a buddy who owns one already.

But the bullet mold and swage are more intimidating pieces to make to my minds eye.

Let me ask this, if I carefully measure the bore of the gun, maybe using a pin gage set...is there a chance I can buy a picket bullet mold/swage set from somewhere/somebody in the caliber I would need?

Then I'd need to get the nipple out and replaced with a new one. And the fine pin front sight is no longer present under the hood...I read in Ned's book some makers used a piece of hog's hair to make the front sight!! Wow...now I need to buy a hog (skin on) :grin:

 

[mhb]

Big6:

Remember that the recess in the straight starter needs to precisely match the bullet nose, to keep it straight and centered in seating. This was usually accomplished by the original maker using the cherry he cut the mold with as a reamer for the starter nose. The diameter of the starter needs to be close to bore diameter for the same reasons, but the recess cannot be so deep that the starter would interfere with the patch. The usual material for the starter nose is brass, to avoid damage to the bore.

It is always possible to find an existing mold and swage, but finding a pair that were correct for your gun and each other would be a long haul, probably.

You have not said what caliber your piece is: a nominal .38" was common for target rifles at the time, and some of the buggy rifles were in the same nominal caliber - but the actual dimensions varied from maker-to-maker, and from gun-to-gun, since the maker made everything in the set of accoutrements, and could match anything he made.

If it turns out that your buggy rifle is a .38, you might make use of a dodge I used with an original Edwin Wesson .38 target rifle many years ago. It was a gain-twist barrel, and it just so happened that an available maxi-ball mold produced a bullet that was a perfect fit in the bore, and shot exceptionally well (used without a patch, of course, but with lubricated felt wads and an appropriate lube on the bullet).
It would be simpler for the modern shooter to find or have made a maxi-type mold than to acquire all the correct, original-type accessories needed for a picket gun.

Of course, shooting it at all will depend on the condition of the bore, which needs to be near-perfect for good shooting with either picket or maxi.

It is true that some of the 'pinhead' front sights were made of hog bristle, and it took considerable practice to achieve the tiny bead on the top of the bristle with a hot iron. But, unless your eyes are considerably better than mine, I think you'll find the pinhead a poor sight for best shooting - one that you can see clearly in all lights and against all likely targets is best, and a plain post or post and bead of somewhat larger dimensions than the bristle pinhead works best for me

mhb - Mike

 

[cynthialee]

If it is in firing condition then it could still be used to shoot with just roundballs couldn't it?


I noticed there is a bullet in the box. If the barrel is measured properly and that last bullet given to the mold maker, I betcha a proper mold could be created for it.

 

[mhb]

Yes, you can certainly shoot patched roundballs through it - I did so with the Wesson rifle, but it shot best with the maxi.

If there is an original bullet, it can certainly be duplicated - and, despite the original methods for target shooting with the picket bullet, it does not have to be swaged. Swaging simply makes the bullets more uniform than as-cast. It should be noted that the original bullet may be somewhat smaller in diameter if it is as-cast, than it would be after swaging, as it is customary to swage-up to final dimension, rather than down.

In any case, the diameter of the bullet itself, compared to the bore diameter, should make it apparent whether it is correct for shooting as it now is. It should be possible to determine whether the bullet has been swaged by the presence or absence of casting lines. And, in making a new mold, it should be decided whether the bullets will be swaged or shot as-cast, and the mold dimensioned accordingly.

mhb - Mike

 

[Big6ft6]

Wow...Thanks Mike and Cynthia! These are VERY helpful comments (especially for my daydreaming here at work!).

The "bullet" that you see in the box hardly deserves that title. Up close it looks more like a round lead fishing splitshot that someone found in the bottom of a river, then chewed on it. It definitly does not seem to be a conical bullet of any type and for sure not swaged. It may be a random piece of round lead someone stashed in the box. But I will look closer tonight.

Thanks for the comments on the roundball/maxiball. This was something I was hoping to get clarification on but you beat me to it :wink: , nice to know those are both possibilities

Yes I have yet to measure the bore...all I have is a cheap Chinese digital calipers at home, not sure how precise it will be...do I just measure across the lands?

 

[mhb]

Yes, you can measure across the lands with a caliper - IF there are an even number of lands and grooves. Odd numbers complicate the measurement, though your own suggestion of measuring with pin gauges is a good one. You could also use a split ball gauge, if you have one, and measure that with your caliper.

Even an inexpensive caliper should be sufficient for the job, so long as it measures accurately to the thousandth.

mhb - Mike

 

[sheba]

North East Industrial use to make custom bullet moulds from customer bullet designs,if they still do you can send the bullet you have and they can make a mould from it.

 

[Big6ft6]

Well, it has 7 grooves of rifling...so I grabbed my drill bit set and tried carefully inserting different bit shanks into the muzzle (not sharp end) the drill shank with diameter .342 fit very well...with just enough room if I was very careful I could slide it in the barrel without hanging up just barely a "snug" loose fit. The next size up was .358 diameter and it was too big to fit in the muzzle.

Maybe .345 diameter? I need better measuring tools to know any better.