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muzzleloader ownership question

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tnlonghunter said:
I
After his release he will be on parole for two years. My question is this: Does anyone know about the laws regarding ownership of a muzzleloader by a convicted felon in the state of Michigan? Or where exactly to find out the information? I know that he cannot own modern firearm, but I also know that a lot of states don't consider muzzleloaders to be firearms. What about buying blackpowder (GOEX, etc.)?

Think you friend is out of luck, as in most place if you are a conviced felon. No guns, no Explosives, and I would not want to play the LEGAL FEES to argue his case in Court.

Take him shooting with you, and let him share your Firearm, and Powder. If you want to get that involved. :thumbsup:
 
I live in Michigan, own and shoot both black powder and smokeless powder guns, and I am not a lawyer.

Your friend may not possess a gun, black powder or otherwise, in the State of Michigan. Michigan considers black powder guns to be firearms, just like smokeless powder guns.

There are means to restore his ownership/possession rights, but it is not an easy task. The fact that his felony conviction is a gun law violation will make it especially difficult. The attitude of his local county prosecutor will have a great deal of influence in the matter. Without a lawyer it will be impossible to accomplish.

He has a difficult decision to make: whether to invest the time and money (which will be considerable) and hire a lawyer to pursue it.
 
If I could make a recommendation, Windsurfing is a terrific sport too. You don't need much money to get in, there is a lot of older kit being given away after sitting idle for years. I am doing that a lot now.

Its a great pity to have closed off his options like that, and good to have a friend such as yourself. If he likes the field, craftwork and weapons, he could consider:
Knifemaking
SCA -style armour making
Medieval crossbows
Fencing
Fine furniture restoration
Camera-based hunting
Game park guide or volunteer


He might also consider joining a service club or volunteer organisation or a church, if he wants to build a network away from a previous set of company.
 
I know a question was given to Fish and Game.
Can a felon hunt with a muzzleloader?
There reply was: No.A felon can only hunt with a bow or crossbow.It is illegal for a felon to possess any type of firearm.
But like the others said, check with an Attorney.
 
Thanks guys. I was pretty sure it would be tricky at best. Maybe we'll see what happens after the parole date is up. I guess I see lots of archery in the future. There are lots of other options for changing his environment and support system. I just kinda hoped this would be an option since he seemed so interested. Oh well. Time will tell.
 
I'm a Michigan lawyer.

Your pal is ineligible to possess any firearm and bp rifles are firearms here.

May seem harsh but that's the law.
 
I think taking away someones Second Amendment Rights, over some stupid crime is :bull:

As long as the crime did not involve firearms!

If folks are too unstable to handle a firearm properly they should be admitted!

I feel the government will do anything they can to destroy rights awarded by the Constitution! :bull:
 
Mule Brain: First, The Constitution does not award any rights. IT PROTECTS inalienable rights we have from our creator.

Second, dangerous people need to be " COMMITTED " to an institution, not " admitted ".

Third. There are status offense gun crimes, as well as crimes that are " second guess crimes" involving guns where people should not be locked up with criminals. In every state, we have a lesser charge to Murder that involves a jury determination that the defendant's belief that he had a right to use deadly force was mistaken. ( Second guessing the accused) Its pretty easy for some juries to dislike a defendant for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with the facts of the case. Unlike on TV, where CSI investigators find the most minute clue that tells what happens, most cases tried in real courts involve only a prosecutor calling a defendant a liar, and then impuning his integrity with past convictions, or anything else that can be admitted into evidence. Not to over look things like race, education, ability to speak English, and other things that are obvious in a courtroom but would not appear in a typed record. I had a prosecutor in a Rape/ Kidnapping case argue against my client's consent defense by asking the jury to consider how ugly the defendant is( he was) and ask themselves if they think it would be reasonable for the victim to consent to have sex with him?

In states with no concealed carry laws, if you are caught with a gun, no matter if you are an innocent victim trying to pursue a burglar, or home invader, the police can and will arrest you for violating the possession of a loaded weapon statute. Do you want people denied the right to own a gun because of a conviction for that kind of offense?

In Illinois, we have an offense called Armed Violence, that makes any manslaughter conviction or Second Degree Murder Conviction a non-probabional offense if a firearm is used. If you kill someone with our car, or a knife, or Ming Vase, the statute does not apply, but if you use a gun, it does. And Prosecutors routinely add a count of Armed Violence to their Murder indictments just so they put the defendant in the trick bag of having to win it all, or lose his freedom.

So, don't be so fast to try to lay down simple rules. There are many unintended consequences, based on how a new law affects existing statutes and case law. YOu have your heart in the right place, but its not as easy as you suggestto write a new law.
 
The Second Amendment, as written by the Constitutional Convention of 1787, states:
“ A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed. ”

The hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights which hangs in the National Archives had slightly different capitalization and punctuation inserted by William Lambert, the scribe who prepared it. This copy reads:
“ A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. ”

I have read the Second Amendment. It is of course to some up to interpretation.

The Right To Keep And Bear Arms, is written in the Constitution.

So the Constitution does not grant us Rights To Bear Arms? It is a God given right?

The signers of the "Declaration of Independence" deemed it a "self evident truth" that all men are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

From what my not so good brain, is that the Constitution does grant Rights to gun ownership, and the Declaration of Independence grants Unalienable Rights.

Or am I reading this all wrong? Or do I need Committed :grin:
 
I have no problems with losing your 2d rights if you commmit a felony. I don't want armed criminals in my community.

Misdemeanants can still possess firearms in MI.

'What ye sow, so shall ye reap' comes to mind.
 
As long as he is on parole he is probably SOL after that I would suggest he petition the state to have his conviction expunged and also check with the BATF to see if he can still file for federal relief of disabilites, some states will honour this if granted over their own statutes, he has a couple of years to do a comprehensive research on all the options, sometimes a brief moment of stupidity or indulgence in the wrong substance can change ones life forever but if it is a one and only time there are often ways of recovering ones rights, it will take dedication, time, and having a lot of people behind him but it could happen.
 
Most States deny a Felon the right to own and bear arms, the right to vote and various other rights.

This is part of the punishment people must live with if they choose to commit a felony.

I believe this loss of freedom goes along with the punishment for violating Federal laws which are considered felonies as well as the State laws.

Is it fair? Perhaps not for those people who commit a non violent felonious act against their fellow citizens but, most people agree that loosing various "rights" is a fitting punishment for those who are found to be guilty.
 
The Declaration is merely a statement of rights. It is an explanation to the civilized world to explain why a revolution to dissolve the ties between part of a kingdom and its king has proven necessary.

The Bill of Rights were added to the Constitution to set out rights that Congress could not infringe upon. The Ninth and Tenth Amendments were intended to be block against an oppressive Federal government infringing on certain powers reserved to the State, and to rights retained by the people. The 14th amendment incorporated the Bill of Rights to apply to all the states, as well as to Congress and the Federal Government. Unfortunately, the SCOTUS has not yet ruled that the Second Amendment was incorporated as a right that States could not infringe on.

No where in the Constitution does it allow government to take away an unalienable right, except when imprisoning or executing a person after due process of law. I do not believe there is a healthy body of case law supporting the idea that government has the right to take away Civil Rights and liberties from free people. That bothers some of my gun owning friends, however, who believe that NO person convicted of a felony should be allowed to possess a gun.

Of such are the substance of many conversations, thought, and arguments. I can see restricting released felons from carrying a firearm, or requiring all convicts to take and pass a firearms safety course before being able to possess a firearm( You really can't possibly know how ignorant most convicts are about guns!!), or pass a period of time before complete restoration of rights occurs after their release. Those seem to be reasonable request and tailored to prevent the misuse of firearms by people who have not proven that they can exercise clear and lawful judgments in our society. I would require them to take a course in firearms law, and the law of self defense, as well as show competence on a range, to get a carry permit, for instance, after they complete a period of probation where a board can see what they have made of their lives since their release to show that they are prepared to be contributing members of our society, and not a continuing threat of criminal violence.

No one has a crystal ball. But we are canstantly told if we just give up our rights to government bureaucrats who will use their crystal balls to tell which of us can be trusted to possess a gun, that we will be safer, and people believe it, even though they also willing admit that we don't have a crystal ball. This is the snakeoil of modern government- " Trust me " and I will keep you safe", when the law does not require( make it a duty) the government, at any level to provide you with protection, the government can't be everywhere all the time, so can't be expected to protect you, and if you are being attacked by too many people, government has the right to back off and leave you to your own devices to save your life and property, while they protect city property from gunfire, and firebombs. But people buy into the " let the government do it " lazy kind of citizenship so they don't have to be bothered getting bloody or wet. All registration, and back ground checks, and other forms of screening are based on the fallacy that government has a crystal ball when you don't. I was taught that 1 times zero is zero, and that any larger number times zero is still zero. That tells me that 265 million times zero( a government of the people, by the people, for the people) is still---wait for it----ZERO! How about that! And you thought you would never have a use for simple multiplication ! Everyone wants to ring their hands when some nut, or suicidal kid takes a gun to a " gun free zone" ( really, a " FREE FIRE ZONE" ) and begins shooting people. Its got to be someone's fault beside the perpetrator.

Well, it doesn't. And government cannot fix everything. That is what the Founding Fathers figured out. Just read that long list of specific greavances against King George III in the Declaration of Independence. If the King could not resolve those, he could hardly be expected to provide protection to thousands of settlers miles from the nearest road and further from the nearest town. The founding fathers had no choice but to be self governing, simply because the King was so far away, as was his government. It was also clear that many in the English Government considered people living in the colonies to be second class citizens, and not worthy of having elected representative serve in either the House of Parliament, or the House of Lords. Since the King had never traveled to the Colonies, he had no clue of the real problems that existed there, and the substantial reasons why his subjects would revolt against his rule, finally, in 1775.

The world was very fortunate that a host of great minds came together, all steeped in the teachings of Natural Law as the source of the rights of citizens, at a time when events required a separation of the American Colonies from the British Empire. They were the right men, at the right time, and they knew what had to be done. The world is so much better a place for their courage and actions, today. God bless them all.
 
Depends on the state. The feds have black and caps both listed as explosives. Using black with a flinter or caps for a caplock with Pyrodex are both illegal if you are a convicted felon on a federal level.

The idea that a violent felon should not be allowed a firearm makes sense, but like many such laws has a million ways to be abused. The Anti-gun crowd has been using the felony disqualification as a way to disarm people for 30 years or better. You lose your rights because of a DWI in some places. If you ever were accused of family violence you lose your rights. Getting caught smoking a joint can cost you your rights. They constantly support candidates that pledge to push such innocent sounding issues to disqualify another huge block of people all the time.
One of the things this country was founded on was the elimination of debtors prison. Some kind hearted soul thought that making a law about supporting children was a good idea. The other day I watched a guy get 3 four year sentences for "felony non-support". That kind hearted person re-introduced debtors prison to the US! All such laws have these kinds of results. Since he did not pay his child support, he has multiple felonies. They took his liscence and he has not had a drivers liscence to get to work to earn the money to pay his child support for over a year of that time. He has lost several important rights.
According to the good citizens that is ok. I hope they know that there are groups out there trying to get laws passed to include them in the felon count so they lose their rights also.
There was a bill passed in Washington to allow those who had clean records for a time period to get their rights restored. So far, the gun control people have stopped any attempt to fund the program. So, while there is law to restore their rights, there is no office to deliver the papers to or even a clerk to accept them. Because of that, several states have begun to implement restoration policies of their own. I think it is 7 years here and all non firearm offenders can get their rights restored. Common sense does win out sometimes.
Violent felons that are a danger to society do not care if it is illegal for them to own or possess firearms. They are by definition outlaws that live, act and exist outside the structure of law. No matter what you do as far as laws, the OUTLAWS will do what they will. Gun laws do not effect outlaws.
The restrictions on "unreasonable search and seizure" are already gone it seems. A pregnant womans blood can be seized to see if she smokes pot before her baby is born. They can take the baby if she does. Did anyone else read the early science fiction books? The correct living police are alive and well today just as the books predicted. Orwell anyone?
Course, a Bess is an assault weapon, isn't it? :blah:
 
tnlonghunter,

My stepbrother has similarly made some mistakes in the past but is trying to get his life on the right track. I have been trying to help him look into this issue (more for his 12 year old son who loves to hunt than him). The Gun Control Act of 1968 prevents felons from having firearms but does not define traditional muzzle loaders as firearms. Specifically, Section 921: Definitions of 18 USC includes the following:

(3) The term "firearm" means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

Furthermore:

((16) The term "antique firearm" means -

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica -

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.


Unfortunately, the kicker is that we're not sure if he can posess black powder or black powder substitutes as the following definition of "ammunition" is also included, and he is not allowed to posess ammunition.

(17)(A) The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

We have drafted a letter from the local ATF requesting clarification but have not received a response.

Of course, Michigan may have more stringent laws than the federal statutes, which Montana does not.

Anyway, good luck with helping your friend. :hatsoff:
 
Mule Brain said:
The Second Amendment, as written by the Constitutional Convention of 1787, states:
“ A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed. ”

The hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights which hangs in the National Archives had slightly different capitalization and punctuation inserted by William Lambert, the scribe who prepared it. This copy reads:
“ A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. ”

I have read the Second Amendment. It is of course to some up to interpretation.

The Right To Keep And Bear Arms, is written in the Constitution.

So the Constitution does not grant us Rights To Bear Arms? It is a God given right?

The signers of the "Declaration of Independence" deemed it a "self evident truth" that all men are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

From what my not so good brain, is that the Constitution does grant Rights to gun ownership, and the Declaration of Independence grants Unalienable Rights.

Or am I reading this all wrong? Or do I need Committed :grin:

I think we all agree, so you're preaching to the choir. This discussion is about whether tnlonghunter's friend can "legally" possess a muzzleloader. It's not a debate about the Second Amendment.
 
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