Loyalist Arms Brown Bess

[BigBob]

Are there any satisfied owners of the Loyalist Arms Bess out there?

I understand they take imported Indian "display" guns and make them shootable.

Anyone here with good experiences with them? My conundrum is that I could afford one now (which I understand has more period correct markings, etc) OR save for a while and get a Pedersoli. This will be my first smoothbore BP gun.

I read a horror story about an Indian bess that blew up at a reenactment - has that turned out to be a one in a million occurrence, or have some of you had negative experiences with them?

I really wanted an India pattern Bess (which the Pedersoli is not), but if it comes down to an issue of reliability and something that I can look forward to a lifetime of use and the Loyalist Arms won't fit the bill, I'll save my pennies.

Thanks for any info!

Bob

 

[xring2245]

Stay away from Indian. Nothing good comes out of India. If you can afford the Pedersoli for $1100.00 get that. If not, save your pennies. Always buy quality.

James

 

[flintlock75]

I have seen and handles several India Made Guns, they are close to original designs and are hand made. The guns tend to be heavy due to the use of rose wood for the stocks and are over built. I understand that they can be reworked to be more handy. The one that blew up was due to it not being cleaned in several seasons of shooting blanks, the bore was full of crud. the Lab reports found no flaw in materials or workmanship.
The price is right but you will want to spend time reworking it to a more accurate look.

 

[Tommy Bruce]

I've handled a number of these guns and I'm sorry, I'm just not that impressed with them. Looked at one this weekend that a friend has. He wants to re-finish the stock and put a Rifle Shoppe lock on it because he's had a bunch of trouble with it. The finish was horrible, inletting sucked, stock was too bulky and the barrel and lock looked like they had been chromed. If you don't have to have a first model Bess save some money and look for a used Pedersoli or better yet a used Jap model Bess. I just missed one on Auction Arms that had a buy it now price of 525.00 that included a bayonet and frog with it. Pedersoli has gotten way out of line on their prices, keep checking the internet for a good used Bess.

 

[trettie]

I have a Loyalist Arms English ("Jacobean") lock fowler, which I use for live fire target shooting (mostly round ball, some small shot). Initially it needed some adjustment to lighten the trigger pull, and after a couple of seasons I needed to repair a split in the fore-stock. I've put about 100 shots through it and so far it's been a very reliable lock. If you do order one, I would ask the folks at Loyalist to pick one out with good straight grain in the stock, as that seems to be the weakest aspect of their pieces. I had very good experience with Loyalist in terms of communication and service. Be aware though that their pieces do not come proofed, though they might offer that as an extra, I'm not sure.

 

[BigBob]

Great input guys, I appreciate it!

 

[Grenadier1758]

I have a Loyalist Arms Brown Bess. Mine is the Long Land Pattern of 1728 lock (Unbridled frizzen). They import a number of variants. Loyalist imprts them for shooting and they are inspected, tested and minor tuning is done. They will be a bit heavy and inletting won't be perfect. Mine is a shooter with several hundred live rounds and lots of blanks shot through it. I am satisfied with my musket.

 

[goon]

If it's a Pedersoli you want, you don't actually need $1100.
There are a lot of them floating around used in the hands of reenactors. I got one last year for less than half that. I'd think you could probably find a decent (meaning better than mine) used one for around $800 if you're patient and look for one/ask around.

Can't help you on the Indian guns though - I've asked around a lot myself and get the whole range of opinions from love to hate. I think if I get one for live fire I'll try to get one cheap and get it rebarreled with a real barrel of known metallurgy and quality, but that's just me.

 

[LeeinVA]

I have a 1840 Potsdam from middlesex trading company, an indian gun. Shoots well and well worth what i had spent. The finish is a lot to be desired and shall soon strip her. I also have a Percussion Lorenze in .62 cal. from veteran arms and i really like this one and this too is an idian gun.

 

[BigBob]

I emailed Loyalist Arms with a few questions on their products, and for quotes for prices (including delivery).

Here is part of the response:

"Our guns are designed from the factory with the intent of firing live rounds.
We send out loading and proofing data with each and every musket we sell.
There is no government proof house in Canada that can verify proofing, therefore,
we give our customers the proofing data so that they can proof their own muskets , pistols etc.
We strongly urge customers to proof every muzzleloading firearm , no matter who the manufacturer is.
If you would like more information on proofing in general, please give Blair a call at 902-479-0967."

I am going on a trip for a few weeks, during which time I am keeping an eye on some auctions and used sales. Keeping my fingers crossed on a couple to see if they stay in my price range. I am a bit more comfortable with the thought of a Loyalist Bess now, though, and don't think I'd turn one down if the price was "right".

 

[LeeinVA]

I did speak Blair on several occasions and it appears to me he really is a spot on guy, but one just never knows. I do like Middlesex, but they are slow. Charles at veteran arms is a good too. Just my two cents.

 

[CrackStock]

I read a horror story about an Indian bess that blew up at a reenactment - has that turned out to be a one in a million occurrence, or have some of you had negative experiences with them?

Please share any details regarding the alleged event where a gun blew up at a reenactment. I know of only one and that was not a gun from India. It was also charged with numerous loads which had not fired and the shooter failed to notice. When it finally did go off, the result was ugly, but the barrel did not burst as has been alleged. The shooter and musket suffered significant damage. The event that I know about was in South Carolina several years ago.

I know of no failures of foreign muskets other than this one, but want to know the details if others have happened.

Thanks,
CS

 

[BigBob]

There is actually a discussion on what I was referring to here:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/212833/fromsearch/1/tp/0/all/1/

And some pics at this one:
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/1466

Not trying to revive a dead horse, my intent on this thread was to get perception on the guns made by loyalist by those who own them (assuming they were made from Indian repros).

Thanks,
Bob

 

[spudnut]

Are Loyalist and Descriminating General the same company?

 

[LeeinVA]

Negative ghosst rider:
http://www.veteranarms.com/ReproductionMuzzleloadersandFlintlocks/Muskets.html
http://www.flintlockrepair.com/longlandmuskets.html
http://www.militaryheritage.com/index.html
http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/
http://loyalistarms.freeservers.com/mainpage.html

and a few others :wink:

 

[KJGROHS]

I am wondering something here, if all Indian made guns are so losy, horribily built and designed, and blow up all the time as some folks claim!! Why are so many being used and owned by reenacters, yes there seems to be fingers pointed to them , seems 1 articel says Indian and another says Italian ,seems to me Italian guns blow too, I owned three pedersoli brown bess's and whish I never got rid of them they are good, but so damn expensive , I've held Indian built guns looked at them but never bit I to one and bought on e because I can build anything out there, but a beater Indian built one would be great, now if you experts say they are so crappy why is there warrenty better than Italian guns, I know for a fact Italian guns are proofed, Indian guns arnt , but if you look around guys the others aren't proofing them except the Spanish guns and awhile back when I started in this game it was the cheap spai ish guns, before them it was japaneese and Korean stuff, so anyone reading this I'm not bashing anyone just lemtting the new guys see this stuff like anything else goes in circles , I'm Loking at a Potsdam musket because I like it and will beat it to death.

 

[spudnut]

I'm with you.I remember when I had a Japanese Bess and the reenactors Pooh pooing me about it and they all had Italian bess's.Now people really like the Jap ones if they come across one.
Indian made I want a tulle,a spanish,an english lock.etc.I could never afford custom made of all the ones I want(Just love old time guns)I would LOVE finly built customs but I don't see it happening,And I would wreck a lot of wood if I tried it myself.

 

[LeeinVA]

I do have the 1840 Potsdam. The only complaint that i have is the finish is some sort of paint/varnish. I have yet to shoot her, and she has been gone over with a fine tooth comb. I do not see a single seam anywhere on the barrle. I also have an 1854 Lorenze from Veteran arms, and i love it! The indian guns are not perfect, but i dont see the reason why i need to pay $ 1,400.00 on a Potsdam from pedersoli. I do have a pedersoli bess and spent $595.00 in the 90's. This is where the indian guns are now. I have no issues with them. Look at it this way? I have bought a dozen flints, 75 balls, patches, priming flask, powder horn, sling, vent pick & brush, jags, worms, etc. And i have still saved hundreds. Go for it. MSTC has a looong lead time.. Hit me up if you have questions..

 

[satwel]

I have an India Pattern Bess from Loyalist Arms that I picked up second hand. Normally, I would have passed on it, but the price was too good to let it go. It must have belonged to a reenactor for it has a few dings but didn't appear to have ever been fired. Here is are my thoughts and what I have learned so far:

1. On the plus side, the wood to metal fit is excellent. No gaps around the inletting.

2. After much research in books and at auction websites, I feel that it is a surprising accurate reproduction of an original India Pattern Bess. It has the beavertail detail around the barrel tang, which the Middlesex Village repros omit.

3. A colleague, who builds and modifies repro Bess's and restores originals for the reenactor community here in MA, told me that the barrel dimensions of the Loyalist Arms repros match originals exactly. In fact, he said an original Bess bayonet will fit my barrel. He was right about that!

4. The stock has way too much wood on it. The good news, there's plenty of material there to work with when I reshape the stock.

5. The lock, although a little crude on the inside, sparks like crazy. I own many flintlocks and none of them throw a shower of sparks like this one. If you spark it with no powder in the pan, you can hear the sparks hiss. The markings on the lockplate are fairly decent. The trigger pull is difficult to the point of being comical.

6. I have fired only six shots from it. Ignition speed is very fast-as fast as my custom built flint rifles. No whoosh-bang, just a bang. Atrocious trigger pull made accuracy testing impossible.

I'm approaching it as a kit. I plan to take it apart, strip the blobby, shiny finish on the wood, thin the stock where it is too thick, take the mirror like shine off the barrel and lock. Stain the nutwood to get it as close to European walnut as possible and refinish with Linseed oil. I'll reduce the trigger pull and hopefully end up with a serviceable, perfectly functional, reasonably accurate repro of an India Pattern Bess for short money.

I still want a high-quality, authentic Short Land Pattern musket so I plan to get the kit from the Rifle Shoppe next year, but in the meantime, the Loyalist Arms India Pattern will be fun to play with.

Dixie Gun Works sells the Pedersoli Short Land Pattern as a kit for $815 which seems reasonable. I was tempted to go that route until my colleague pointed out how the Pedersoli differs from originals.

IMHO: Loyalist Arms sells the best repros coming from India. I know the Indian repros are functional and affordable, but I'd save up my money and buy the Pedersoli kit rather than buying an Indian repro. Although not 100% HC, the Pedersoli is higher quality and way more authentic than an Indian repro.

 

[BigBob]

Thank you so much for the detailed break down of your observations on your Bess!

It sounds like you feel it was well worth what you paid for it.

Do you mean the trigger pull is exceptionally heavy?