Longhunters knife

[faw3]

Ive been thru a lot of book's on what knife was used when and Im really sure now no one knows really. But the Perkins,Searles (that a Bowie did have made - we know that for sure) and Forrest all have the same type " Med" blade at least. the Searles if Ive read it right a fancy copy of the " Duel" knife to give to some people. Fred :hatsoff:

 

[J.D.]

Davy,
Thanks for those Bowie photos, I have seen most of them, but I do enjoy looking at them, from time to time.

Where did you find the photo of the Moore Bowie?

That is the one that was supposed to have been picked up near the funeral pyre at the Alamo.

Good stuff.
thanks,
J.D.

 

[davy]

That I am not sure of JD and I do not think anybody is frankly. Here is another photo of Laura Bowie, a descendant of Jim Bowie, that a friend sent me who met her a few years ago, she is holding the Musso Bowie and the Moore knife in hand as well! :shocked2: I would have liked to have been there too! :hmm: :thumbsup:

Davy

 

[faw3]

Great pic Davy, Fred :thumbsup:

 

[Bill L]

I have a dirk that was made by Dennis Miles which I like and I puchased a very nice antler handled 18th century style knife with a poured pewter bolster from Mike Wise at the last Eastern. I considered it a bargain. Knife and sheath cost $165.00 which I feel is very reasonable for a custom knife. I am sure that you would be happy with one of Mike's knives.

 

[J.D.]

Thanks for that photo Davy. It's interesting to see descendents of famous people with items that made their ancestors famous.

It's even better when the descendent is cute. :thumbsup:
J.D.

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings All,

Here is what Rezin P.Bowie had to say about the Bowie Knife in a letter dated August 24, 1838, to the editor of The Planters' Advocate.

" The first Bowie-Knife was made by myself in the parish of Avoyelles, in this state, as a hunting knife, for which purpose, exclusively, it was used for many years. The length of the knife [BLADE] was nine and one-quartee inches, its width one and a half inches, single edge, and blade not curved".

Further on in the letter, Mr. Bowie states that he loaned this knife to his brother James for self protection. This is the knife used by brother James st the so-called, "San Bar Fight"

Another part of the letter states, "The improvement in its fabrication and the state of perfection which it has since acquired from experienced cutlers, was not brought about through
my agency".

The late Raymond W.Thorpe, author of the classic book, BOWIE KNIFE, wrote that this knife was lost by a Bowie nephew, when his pirogue capsized in a swamp.

Nowhere in Rezin Bowie's description of his original knife is a cross guard mentioned. Evidently, there was not one on this knife.

It would seem that Rezin had a second knife made to replace the lost one. This second knife was on display in 1974 at the State Historical Musuem, Jackson, Mississsippi.

This knife also does not have a cross guard. The blade is single edged, straight, not curved, 10-1/4" long, 1-13/16" wide. The handle is checkered ebony, held in place with three rivets.
The mounting, butt cap, and sheath are silver.

Mnay years later, when oxidation was removed from the silver sheath and silver butt cap, found engraved in old script letters, on the silver butt cap were the initials, R.P.B.

The right side of the sheath is engraved:

Presented To
Jesse Perkins
By
R. P. Bowie 1831

This knife was made by Henry Schively of Philadelphia, PA. and is so marked on the left side of the blade and is the one at the top of Davy's posting of four Bowie knifes on the previous page.

Hopefully this information will shed some light and facts on the first Bowie Knife.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[capnwilliam]

That I am not sure of JD and I do not think anybody is frankly. Here is another photo of Laura Bowie, a descendant of Jim Bowie, that a friend sent me who met her a few years ago, she is holding the Musso Bowie and the Moore knife in hand as well! :shocked2: I would have liked to have been there too! :hmm: :thumbsup:

Davy

That's a nice pair she has! :haha:

Capt. William

 

[davy]

She do have a couple of good points about her donchee! :hmm: :blah:

Davy

 

[Okwaho]

David,do you know the provenance [chain of ownership}of either of these two knives? The earliest reference I have seen as to a knife similar to the Musso knife is the one shown on the cover of "American Knives" by Harold L. Peterson along with an illustration and description on Page 27.That particular knife was formerly part of the William O. Sweet collection and it should be noted that in his book, Peterson makes no claim as to Bowie having owned the knife and refers the knife only as "The classical bowie in it's purest form".Perhaps there were other knives closely similar to the Sweet knife.

The only information I have seen on the Bart Moore Bowie is the oral claim of descendancy made by that family.I noticed with interest the statement herein that the family rejected an offer of a million dollars for the knife by a "Japanese buyer" then sold it to a Texas museum for a smaller sum. That's strange!

All told these are two very interesting and intriguing knives.
Tom Patton

 

David,do you know the provenance [chain of ownership}of either of these two knives? The earliest reference I have seen as to a knife similar to the Musso knife is the one shown on the cover of "American Knives" by Harold L. Peterson along with an illustration and description on Page 27.That particular knife was formerly part of the William O. Sweet collection and it should be noted that in his book, Peterson makes no claim as to Bowie having owned the knife and refers the knife only as "The classical bowie in it's purest form".Perhaps there were other knives closely similar to the Sweet knife.

The only information I have seen on the Bart Moore Bowie is the oral claim of descendancy made by that family.I noticed with interest the statement herein that the family rejected an offer of a million dollars for the knife by a "Japanese buyer" then sold it to a Texas museum for a smaller sum. That's strange!

All told these are two very interesting and intriguing knives.
Tom Patton

These two knives keep popping up and have been commented on before. But I'll repeat: The Moore Bowie is most likely a Mexican Bowie, in any event, it is most likely NOT a Bowie made by James Black of Arkansas (supposedly for James Bowie) as it has absolutely NO points of similarity to any known Black knives. It has no provenance to Jim Bowie except the tale of a Mexican man who gave it to the Moore family (according to their oral history) in payment of a debt. It currently resides in the Territorial Museum in Little Rock Arkansas in their very fine Bowie Knife Collection--a trip worth doing if you like Bowie knives. The Musso Bowie (and I hesitate to say this, because Mr. Musso is very protective of his treasure) may be a fake. Similar knives have turned up, like the one on Peterson's book cover. Old Bowie collector and expert Parsons (now deceased) is quoted as saying ALL Bowies with brass backs are fakes. Many apparently were made in England in recent times and turned up on the collectors market "out of nowhere". In any event it also has NO points of similarity to any known Black knife--and Musso claims it was made by Black. This knife is still owned by Mr. Musso, who promotes it, and it has been used as a model for recent Hollywood Alamo productions. No one knows what Jim Bowies "Alamo" knife looked like. No one knows if Bowie even ever owned a clip-pointed big knife with quillons, as none of his early knives, nor any of his brother Rezin's knives had them (Rezin may have been the real "knife nut" in the family).

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have seen the bowie knife that Rezin had made after his brother's death at the Alamo, without the hilt. Rezin told everyone that this was a copy of HIS original knife. Histories tell us that Rezin was cut very badly, and suffered from infections and long convalscence periods to regain the use of his Right hand and arm.

Legend has it it that Brother Jim went to Black while in Arkansas on business, and ordered a modified copy of his brother's knife but with a hilt and quillion, to protect his hands and arms in a knife fight, or when fighting someone armed with a short sword, as it was still the custom for many men to carry short swords to back up their pocket pistols.

I made what was then thought to be an ' accurate " replica of a bowie knife back in 1959, when TV, and the movies brought us the huge cleavers, with the brass backing, and fancy extended guards. It was clunky, heavy in the hand, and the wide blade cause air drag to slow the swing if you wanted to cut something with it. THERE IS NO WAY ANY KNIFE FIGHTER WITH ANY EXPERIENCE WOULD CARRY OR USE SUCH AN UNWIELDY BLADE AS THIS.

I am convinced from using knives that a knife fighter would use a knife with a blade no wider than about 1 1/4 inches, and not the 2-3 inch wide blades passed off as Bowie Knives. The Blade would be 8-10 long, but not longer, as it becomes too long to carry easily, and you might as well carry a short sword when you get above that length. ( Bayonets and short swords were often 20-24 " in length.) The use of slits on the back of the blade to catch the blade of the opponent, so that a quick twist might break the blade, or , more likely, wrench the blade out of the opponent's grip, is intriguing, but undocumented in any knife fight I have read about. I am willing to be convinced, but I have my doubts that this was on the Jim Bowie Knife.

As to the clipped point, sharpened for cutting on the backswing, I think that is possible, even if its not in the Rezin Bowie copy. Rezin was the hard working guy in the family lumber business. Ji m liked the cites, dances, and brawling, and was more the knife fighter than Rezin ever was. It is possible that Jim had Black reshape the end of the blade so that about 3 inches of the blade back form the point could be sharpened to give him that similar advantage of a double bladed sword or dagger. Again, a knife fighter would see the advantage of such a design, where it would be of no use to a working guy who used his knife to cut things, and not people. So, I am waiting with everyone else on that feature to be proved or rejected by future research and discover.

There are some very find knives being made today as I have described what I think the Bowie Knife would have actually looked like. Some have even been shown on this site.

 

Well. Everyone has his/her version of the legend. Facts are harder to come by. Alot of what you relate is legend. John, Jim and Rezin Bowie were all frontiersmen. All participated in many adventures as well as several business ventures. John appears to have been the first to settle down (he was the oldest brother). he was a founder of Helena Ark and had a plantation near there (and near my own family plantation). The brothers dabbled in lumber and sugar cane and slave smuggling and land speculation--some even say land swindles. They went on an expedition to San Saba Texas in search of a Spanish silver mine--and fought a desperate battle with Indians there. Rezin may very well have been the wildest, but his bro Jim got the fame--from the sandbar fight in 1827 and later by dying in the Alamo in 1836--a mere 9 years later. Rezin had to retire from the "active life" because he went blind. His "original knife" (whatever that means) was given to Jim before the sandbar fight and was a plain butcher knife with a 9.25" blade. His "second knife" still exists and is now called the Perkins Bowie--it is in the history museum in Jackson, Miss. It is a plain straight-topped 10" bladed butcher knife made by Shively of Phila. His later knives such as the one in the Alamo were presentation knives that were all fancier than the early knives and had half guards. The blade shape, however, retains the flavor of the early knives--no clip points. Jim's (Rezin's) sandbar knife was the "1st" Bowie knife of legend--it had no guard and no clip point. According to Noah Smithwick, Jim had him make a copy of it in 1828 when Jim went to Texas. But Noah claims it was "about" 10" in blade length. All else is legend or myth, much of it totally spurious. Even the Bowie family related myths as facts and the whole history of the man and knife is confused by too much B.S. The Bowies may very well have known James Black--a knife exists in Ark that was most likely made by Black that was a presentation from Rezin to a man there in the 1830s. The Bowies passed through Washington Ark where Black lived and worked. Black made very distinctive knives with no guards and with coffin handles, some mounted in silver. I have done extensive research and readings about this subject--it has been of interest to me for many years. One of my distant family members owned a Black knife--the Carrigan knife, now in the LR Ark museum. NO ONE knows what Jim's "last" knife looked like or who made it. The only true model we have to go by is the "Rezin style" knives known to exist--and it was Rezin that provided Jim with his sandbar knife. Alot of garbage has been related about the Bowie knives--I maintain that Jim may never have owned a big clip-pointed knife with a full guard--the later idea of a "Bowie Knife".

 

[paulvallandigham]

I agree with your assessment, Mike. As I said, I am willing to be convinced that Jim's knife had a clip point, that was sharpened back for 3 inches or thereabouts, and I am willing to be convinced that his knife had slits cut in the backstrap to catch the blade of his opponent. I doubt the blade was a wide butcher knife as is now depicted, simply because it is so unweildly to use. No one seems to know when clip point knives came into use, but everything I have seen to date suggests they showed up AFTER 1836, and not before. I hoping one of our historians can clear that up for once and for all.

I want to thank you for your comments. I have learned several things, and been reassured about some of the facts I thought I did know.

My own approach was to do a little reverse engineering, I first made a " Bowie Knife " as portrayed, and then took it out and tried to do the things Bowie is credited with doing, either in history books, or in the movies. I even threw the knife to see if It could be thrown accurate. All I learned what that wide blade would catch in the air, and be turned ot one side or the other in the air. It was not a throwing knife! Then I studied books on sword and knife fighting techniques to learn how best edged weapons would be used. Again, that wide, heavy blade was just not a first choice for a fighting knife. And it still isn't. Finally, I considered the length of the blade after seening commercial reproduction Bowie with a 16 inch long blade! No way could that blade be removed quickly from a belt scabbard in a fight, or surprise attack fast enough to save your life. It weighed so much it pulled your pants down, and it banged against the side of your leg so hard you have bruises on the leg by the end of the day. Who would carry such a beast? I think the blade would have to have been in the 8-10 inch range. And, as I have previously said, no more than 1 1/4" inch at the widest part. With a strong back, the blade would be able to break the delicate double edges sword blades and epee blades that had become the fashion at the time, while giving a skilled knife fighter a reliable blade to parry the blows from his opponent's weapon.

I am still willing to be convinced about the knife having a double ended guard, or hilt. That would seem to be a desireable addition to a knife made for knife fighting, where occasionally the opponent would be armed with a sword. But, history shows no such additions to the Rezin bowie knives until his presentation ones sold to make money late in his life.

I find it interesting that the few survivors of the Alamo never gave a detail description of Jim Bowie's famous knife in their accounts, and memoirs. If it looked all that different from other knives they had seen, you might expect them to have made comments about it. Sometimes the lack of information is the " best information " about the truth of something.

Here I believe that as Mike suggests, the Bowie Knife had no guard, and no clip point. I believe its blade was maybe 1-1/8" wide, possibly flairing a little wider at the belly, but maybe not. If Black actually made it, It probably would have had a coffin handle on it. The reason it was lost to history was BECAUSE there was nothing really special about its design.

 

[davy]

Time to haul out the comparison photo again I guess! I find it interesting we do not have a very explicit decription of Jimbos' knife ANYWHERE leading up to, and including the Alamo .. seems like someone woulda noticed it, him being so famous and all! :grin:

Davy :hmm:

 

The top knife--Perkins Bowie is the real deal--a real Bowie knife actually used by one of the Bowies. It has a ~10"x1.5" blade. Smithwick claims the knife he made for Bowie had a 10"x 2" blade. The sandbar knife had a 9.25"x 1.5" blade. I agree that knives with too heavy or long (or wide) blades are unwieldy. My copy of the Perkins knife is exceptionally well balanced--having a tapered forged blade and feels light in the hand. 10" x 1.5" is about the max size to be handy. According to John Bowie, Jim's original "hunting knife" was only a foot long handle and all--meaning it could not have had over a 8" blade.

P.S. Clip point knives are known from Medieval times--nothing new under the sun! Their history in Bowie knives is clouded but they appeared very early on both American and English knives.

 

[davy]

Having had the pleasure of handling a number of wonderful knives big & small from Knife/Alamo author/historian JR Edmondson's nice collection. Jack & I have discussed this issue on a number of ocasions this very point while whipping slashing blades cut the air. :shocked2: :surrender:

It does not take long ... after handling these big knives to come to the clear conclusion ( in my case very un-professional) that they are indeed unwieldy & somewhat unbalanced as well for the most part for seriuos knifework.

A medium size knife with thinner blade is much more manuverable and balenced ... quick in motion and ease of use.

We came to the obvious conclusion that it would be the preferable selection for the experienced knife fighter. Unless you are showing off or planning on chopping down redwoods! :shocked2: :hmm: :rotf:

Davy

 

[paulvallandigham]

I looked through some books I have on old knives, and you are correct Mike. The chip points have been around long before Bowie. I guess my fuzzy memory confused the fact that his knife was credited( I think falsely) with being the first to have a sharpened clip edge for cutting on the backstroke. That was one of the other myths that I learned as a kid about the " Bowie Knife ". Thanks for the pictures, Davy. I was hoping you would get into this discussion, as I know you have a substantial collection of Bowie knives yourself, and are no slouch when it comes to knowing the history.

 

[Homesteader]

I absolutely cannot speak to the historical authenticity of any particular blade for Messr's Bowie and their contemporaries. However, i can speak with some authority to the use of blades.

Starting way back in High School I was a fencer, using foil, epee, and sabre. Wound up being champion level through college. I graduated to the Katana and a variety of knives in my pusuit of Judo, JuJistu, & Aikido. (And some other more back-alley stuff. The 80's were a wild time.)

You could not GIVE me the blade that woman holds in her hands, and I'd love to go against someone using the knife shown used by Bowie in the recent "Alamo" movie. I'd happily do it with a shank of sharpened metal weighing an eighth of that monster.

(Oh, and PLEASE use that bullsh*** ice-pick grip against me!)

I apologize if I'm completely off-topic or off base here, but I simply don't believe those big heavy poorly balanced blades would have been used by anyone who really used knives for fighting. They simply don't work well. We have seen that time and again in our dojo. Also, the written works of the day leaned toward the "small-sword". Gotta go with contemporary info, right?

Lawdy, I feel like a heritic!! Forgive me, please! Forgive me!!

(But I stand by my statements.)

:v

 

[davy]

Why thankee kindly Paul but not me! I WISH I had a nice collection of knives but I do not! Alas I am the one thats allus droolin over everybody elses collection! My knowledge of sich is so limited, as to be plumb embarresin! :hmm: :redface: But thanx Mr. Paul fer puttin me in high class! hey I can dream can I not? :surrender:

Davy