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paulvallandigham said:
....Everyone who knows anything about coning understand that this was done for hunting rifles, to aid in loading the guns fast. You don't need a short starter to load a coned muzzle.
....
The coned barrels also allowed the guns to be reloaded quickly for that rare instance when a hunter came under attack, either by hostile Indians, or crooked, hostile white men.

You just made me realize something. I tend to forget that I look at these things from a reenactors point of view and wish I strive to emulate a hunter, scout, etc. I never considered reenacting a "target shooter", so I forget that many people on the Forum only shoot paper and are only interested in that aspect of things. :doh:
 
Its not a revelation I expected to make. But more power to you. I think many times we see needless debate between the paper punchers, and the hunters, particular when each described a gun as " Accurate", or worse, a barrel as " accurate", without defining in what context they are judging the barrel or gun. The debate is all about a " Failure to communicate," and nothing really of substance.

I have passionately wanted a .36 caliber rifle for more than 30 years because they make such light weight field guns and are all the accurate I ever want for a small game rifle.

I first realized, however, that my favorite " Want " gun would not be much for accuracy on windy days at ranges of 50 yards and beyond when I was at Friendship one Fall, and a storm blew in, spoiling a lot of fine targets for the shooters I was watching. They all took what happened stoicly, and with surprising good humor,( Poop happens!), shaking their heads with a smile to each other.

Here I was seeing some fine off-hand shooting at the 50 yard range with some very fine rifles, and in the middle of the relay, the winds picked up and became gusty, so that no one could put their last 2 or 3 shots in the group they had started. A couple of the men were kind enough to answer some of my dumb questions, when I told them of my interest in owning a .36 caliber rifle for small game.

It was the first time someone explained how they used the flags, and spinners out on the range to judge the wind. I also found out what I have seen every visit since, that when even a light breeze begins to stir on the ranges there, you can have the wind blowing from the West close to the muzzle, and the wind blowing from the East out at your target.

If you shoot the 100 and 200 yard courses, you can have the wind direction switch back and forth a couple of times between the muzzle and the target. The Experienced shooters at Friendship shoot at first light, and late in the afternoon, when the winds either don't exist, or die down.

I am sure that there must be somewhere in America where you don't experience these kinds of wind across a range, but this reality at Friendship is one of the reasons that the .40 and .45 caliber rifles are so often chosen for serious target work. We talk here about trajectories, but in the real world of competition shooting, it windage that makes and breaks the competition. That was my true " revelation."
 
Claude said:
KanawhaRanger said:
If you shorten the nub on your shortstarter down to about 1/8", that will be enough to get the ball just below the muzzle and not have too much patch.

And, if you cone your muzzle, you won't need a short starter. IMHO
Okay I got to ask how would you cone a muzzle as I hate useing a short starter and the less I have to carry or deal with the better simple is good.
 
Claude said:
paulvallandigham said:
....Everyone who knows anything about coning understand that this was done for hunting rifles, to aid in loading the guns fast. You don't need a short starter to load a coned muzzle.
....
The coned barrels also allowed the guns to be reloaded quickly for that rare instance when a hunter came under attack, either by hostile Indians, or crooked, hostile white men.

You just made me realize something. I tend to forget that I look at these things from a reenactors point of view and wish I strive to emulate a hunter, scout, etc. I never considered reenacting a "target shooter", so I forget that many people on the Forum only shoot paper and are only interested in that aspect of things. :doh:
this may be true but for my self shooting targets and getting good groups is okay as I am a hunter who would love to reinact just can not afford it at this time .
 
huntman, i agree with you that simple is good. there are many ways to skin a cat. short starter vs. coning is not the complete set of options here. i use the handle of the knife i am using to cut the patch to push down and 'set' the ball and patch in the end of the barrel just before i cut the patch. talk about the "kiss" method--it is already in your hand.

take care, daniel
 
GENERAL INFO

Unless my memory is failing me, I think muzzleblasts magazine (or Muzzleloader magazine) ran some tests on coning and suffered reduced accuracy as a result...maybe somebody else remembers that article and can clarify
 
I think your memory is OK Roundball, or at least it agrees with mine, which, come to think of it may not be a compliment. I used a Joe Woods tool to cone the muzzle of my .50 caliber Green Mountain barrel and accuracy definitely suffered. Fortunately it was a half stock so I was able to just cut two inches off the barrel and recrown.
But, as Paul V. has stated, accuracy means different things to different people. I could have been happy with the coned muzzle if I had been happy with 50 yard groups of 2 1/2". Realistically that would be OK for most hunting purposes if ranges are fairly short. That is not good enough to satisfy my own nature, I want all the accuracy I can get and don't mind carrying a short starter if that enables me to get a bit better accuracy.
I also agree with Paul V. that coned muzzles were quite common among old rifles. Whether they were the most common or not would require someone to conduct an extensive survey, but they were fairly common. :grin:
 
Just speaking for me, I know I did :wink:


Now I see that coyotejoe has been told he screwed up when he coned a muzzle :shocked2:
 
Paul, I'm sure, especially since reading that other posters have seen them that coned barrels existed on some early rifles. I'm just saying that of the many I've seen, coning was absent. As a matter of fact, even chamfering was minimal or non-existent. I myself prefer a small chamfer, especially when loading a fairly tight load.

Mr. Hoyt puts a chamfer in his barrels. He strongly discourages the use of coning in a target barrel.

I look at it this way. I'm not the greatest shot in the world, whether offhand or from a rest. My eyes ain't what they used to be. I take out all the variables that I can control. If I'm target shooting with my longrifle, I load a tighter ball/patch combo. I usually use a shortstarter then. If I'm hunting, I sometimes use a slightly smaller ball that I can thumb in at least partially and push in the rest of the way with the butt of my patch knife. After I cut the patch, I can ram the ball home with my loading/cleaning jag tipped ramrod. After I fire a shot, whether I make meat or miss, I take my time reloading for the simple reason that whatever was near by has lit out after they heard my gun go bang. Now if I'm huntin' yankees or redskins and I need a quick reload because they're bearing down on me, I'll dump some powder in and drop a bare ball in there and ram it. You don't need a patch for a mansized target under 75 yds. So, to me a wallered out barrel is a needless feature. Especially since there's no Indian war going on right now. Not trying to be a smart aleck, but that's just how I look at things.

I've rarely seen an old pouch with a loop for a shortstarter myself. But I have seen starters supended by a thong, along with a powder measure and that's the way I carry mine. Just as there are untold different ways that we modern shooters do things, I'm sure that the oldtimers had their favorite ways as well.

If a target barrel shoots better without coning, doesn't it stand to reason than a hunting/offhand rifle will too? Most serious bench guns have a false muzzle that is coned to make them easier to load, yet it is removed before firing. The barrel is not even chamfered.

I personally don't care how people like their barrels finished. If coning works for them, hallelujah! and pass the ammunition! That's great!

I'm like you in your statement that I have no real interest in the issue of shortstarters. I usually use one, could get by without it in my longrifle. How common or rare they were is no big deal. Some were used, as were some coned barrels. It's up to the individual to decide whether he wants to use either in his goal to re-enact, hunt or target shoot. It's the same with the jag. I know they used worms back in the olden times. I'm not even sure exactly when the jag was first used in general shooting. I've seen some very old ramrods that had a jag end carved on them and actually made one for a longrifle which worked quite well. I wouldn't be surprised that a loghunter carved one out himself when he lost a worm. "Some" say that they're dangerous to load with, that they never were designed for such a thing. What nincompoopery! Every commercial jag I've ever seen was concave on the end to accomodate the ball. (I make mine flat). If you use a proper size patch, you cannot pull a ball out with one. I'm not aiming this at you Paul. I'm just trying to get back on topic! :grin:

Anyhoo, I've gone on far enough. :yakyak:
 
"Every commercial jag I've ever seen was concave on the end to accomodate the ball."

I'd be interested in how you came to this conclusion?

Old barrels not coned were likely shortened by someone who wasn't a gunmaker, or built by someone who wasn't a real gunmaker. They simply didn't have the tools. You'd think at least one short starter would have survived if they existed.

A coned muzzle will shoot right along side one that isn't. Today on modern rifles we call them a "protected" or "target crowns", the recessed crown is used to protect the real crown. :hatsoff:

No real reason not to crown except that you don't like an easy loading gun. I'm just glad I don't have to use a mallet to start my load anymore. I get tired just watching that.
 
Mark Lewis said:
A coned muzzle will shoot right along side one that isn't.

-------

No real reason not to crown except that you don't like an easy loading gun.

I agree. The magazine article that people site, saying that coned muzzles were inaccurate, was discussed here last year. As I remember, the conclusion was, that the article left some questions as to just how the muzzle was coned and how the tests were conducted. I don't remember the details, but if someone wants to look it up, it might be helpful.
 
"Every commercial jag I've ever seen was concave on the end to accomodate the ball."

"I'd be interested in how you came to this conclusion?"

Answer: By looking at the end of commercial jags. What's the point in making the end concave if not to protect the ball from being flattened a little? I prefer flat faces so that they can clean the breech face better. I don't hammer the ball down. Even the 1/8" shortstarter I do use a hammer with on target loads is concave. Even after hammering, the ball is not flattened.

"A coned muzzle will shoot right along side one that isn't. Today on modern rifles we call them a "protected" or "target crowns", the recessed crown is used to protect the real crown."

Coning and crowning are two different things. I like a short chamfer in a barrel. Not only does it make it easier to align the ball and patch as well as give it a slight start, it also protects the rifling to an extent.
 
"What's the point in making the end concave"

I couldn't say, I'm not the one that designed them. I believe it helps the cleaning patch to stay on the end of the cleaning jag.
 
Reprinted from
"The Blackpowder Journal", April 1997

-- The newest "common problem" for 1996 was centered around a series of very inexpensive Spanish made rifles imported by several companies and designed to sell retail in the $100 range...
(edited for brevity)
... This year, these rifles came fitted with a ramrod featuring a loading end of near bore diameter and a smaller diameter cleaning end. Since both rod ends were tapped to accept the 10 x 32 jag, it's not surprising that many users put the jag on the loading end to clean. This situation allows the cleaning patch to bunch up around the loading tip when the rod is withdrawn from the bore, wedging the rod in the barrel so tight that it cannot be removed. If the jag is placed on the smaller diameter end of the rod, the area behind the jag is enough under bore diameter that the patch has room to bunch up and not lock the rod in the gun. In trying to remove the stuck ramrod, you usually end up with the rod end pulling off the wooden portion leaving the patch, jag and base end in the barrel. The rods that come with a rifle are notorious for having just a glued tip. Always pin your rod ends to the rod itself using a small brass nail, etc.

A similar wedging situation often occurs when beginning shooters try to save money on cleaning patches and cut their own out of old tee-shirts or bed sheets. Actually this can work if the patch size is kept to 2" square of less. For whatever reason many hunters cut a 4"-6" square patch which promptly wedges in the barrel and can be removed only by the most extreme measures. I know of two frustrated shooters who were unable to remove a rod in this situation and poured acid down the bore to dissolve the patch. The acid did eat up the patch so the rod was released, but it also attacked the barrel leaving it so heavily pitted and eroded as to be useless.

--

I ran across this regarding the original post. This is generally speaking about the "very inexpensive" Spanish
ML's.

(maybe too late for this)
 
Civil War Firearms Accessories -Fall Creek Suttlery
Cleaning Jag, Brass button style. .58 fits on cleaning rods or ramrod. ... Specify if Smoothbore Musket (Rounded end) or Rifled Musket (Concave at end).


__________________________________________________

and from HuntandHobby.com
Traditions,
Cleaning Jag
larger image
Cleaning Jag
$2.99
Details
Solid brass jag designed to hold patch securely when cleaning. The concave end eases in loading. 10/32 thread.

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* Model: A1284
* 6 Units in Stock
* Manufactured by: Traditions
 
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