Kentucky Long Rifle conversion??

[Juggernaut]

I have a kentucky Long Rifle in .45 cal percussion. I picked it up several months ago looking to use it in Conjunction with my .45 kentucky pistol while hunting.

A close friend of mine had the rifle and last time I used it it was in excellent condition. Well not any more he neglected the bore, Yep you guessed it rust. I cleaned it and removed all the rust, and still shoots very well and accurate. My question is that I would like to convert it over to a shotgun. I can not damage the rifling no more then it is allready if I shot it as a shotgun now. I thought about re-boring it to .049dia. smooth bore and using as a .50cal shotgun and smooth bore musket? I'm wanted to hunt small game with it as a shotgun.I guess I could run a .044 reamer and see how well it cleans up?

Have any of you done this ? I have contacted a tool and die maker / Gunsmith. He can do it for me and told me it would not effect the Structure integrity!!! He also told me if I used it as a shotgun it would not damage whats left of the rifling and may just give a wierd shot pattern.

All input is Appreciated, Thanks !!

 

[renovato]

The rifling will make your pattern pretty useless at all but the closest distances. If you really want to run shot through it, a smoothbore is the only way to go.

If it still shoots accurately, why rebore it? Might be better to just pick up a fowler or maybe something like a T/C New Englanger with a 12 gauge barrel or something.

 

[musketman]

I have a kentucky Long Rifle in .45 cal percussion. I thought about re-boring it to .049dia. smooth bore and using as a .50cal shotgun and smooth bore musket? I'm wanted to hunt small game with it as a shotgun.I guess I could run a .044 reamer and see how well it cleans up?

I'm guessing it could be done, but you will need to make all your wads, over-shot cards because they may not offer them in .50 caliber. (but that is part of the fun)

A more serious thought would be the barrel itself, how large can you go before you run into tapped screw-holes and barrel pin dovetails, etc. I would suggest to measure from the grooves of the original rifling to the top of the barrel flat.

Then measure the distance from the top flat to the new diameter of the larger bore, then find the depth of your longest tapped barrel screw hole and see if the bigger bore (.50 caliber) will expose that before drilling. It could cause a weak (thin) spot on your barrel that might go unoticed until it is too late.

 

[J.D.]

Reaming smooth could be done, but what would you gain? That same 50 cal rifle will take small game with light loads of 20-40 gr of powder.

 

[J.D.]

That should have read; "That same 45 cal rifle will take small game with light loads of 20-40 gr of powder."

Sorry 'bout that

 

[Juggernaut]

Reaming smooth could be done, but what would you gain? That same 50 cal rifle will take small game with light loads of 20-40 gr of powder.

JD I do hunt small game like rabbits with the .50 but small bore shotgun would come in handy for birds and smaller game.

Juggs

 

[CoyoteJoe]

This question comes up a lot. It is not an easy DIY project to bore a rifled barrel smooth but if you can get it done for a reasonable cost you would have a "smooth rifle", not a shotgun. Shotguns have a stock design and balance for quick point shooting. Rifles are stocked and balanced for aimed fire. A smooth rifle will do fine on squirrels and stationary targets but is not so good for quail, grouse and doves. If you get it bored to .50 caliber smoothbore you can use the felt bore buttons as wads and with 40 grains of 3f and 5/8 ounce of shot it should perform about like a modern .410 shotgun. Could be fun and if the bore is totally ruined it may even shoot a ball better than it does now.

 

[Juggernaut]

Did a little experiment today. My son and I went squirrel hunting with this .45 caliber Kentucky Long Rifle. #11 percussion cap, 45 grains FFFG, felt wad, 7/8th oz #6 shot, topped off with another felt wad. Wow I was impressed. 3 hours later and 8 tree dwelling rodents in our gunny sack we went home to skin our limit. Smell them now in the crock pot now.

I was impressed with the tight pattern and the distance it would shoot. I found you could get a more accurate shot using the rifle sight picture rather then a bead on a shotgun.

To top off the evening just after Sun set we were going to call it a day when 12 WhiteTail Deer walked with in 20 yards of our position. My son will be 6 in November and has been in the woods numerous with me, but this was the first time he seen so many deer so close, 4 out of the 12 were wall hangers. To bad it was not rifle season (Archery Season) now. Anyway it was a very enlightening experience for my boy and even if we did not get a squirrel it was still worth it.

A bad day in the woods with a child teaching them the ways of the wild is better than ten or more at the house.

 

[Zonie]

I'm not sure where you found that 7/8 oz load but IMO it probably should not be shot in a .45 caliber gun.

7/8 ounces of shot weighs 382 grains and just for the record, Lymans Black Powder Handbook shows values for solid bullets up to, but not over 325 grains.
Lyman also doesn't show the use of 3Fg powder with any of the heavy slugs in a .45.
These smaller bored guns can create very high breech pressures from small changes in the powder or projectile weights.

I will admit that a rifle barrel is stronger than most shot gun barrels but Dixie Gunworks recommends a max shot load of 5/8 ounce (273 grains) with 41 grains of 2Fg powder for use in a .410.

 

[Juggernaut]

Went out hunting yesterday evening again with this rifle. My son wanted to sit under the same tree he wanted to see the Bucks again. After 15 minutes he fell asleep (Remember he is 6 years old). A few moments later a small group of Whitetail Does with their fawns came by feeding on the honeysuckle. I gently tried to wake my boy before they left. He did, in time to see a fawn with in 10 yards of our position. After another few minutes they wondered off feeding as if we were not even there.

After the deer left it was getting close to sunset and the squirrels began to emerge from the hiding places and we harvested 6 before dusk.

Zonie thank you for your concern I did research this loading before attempting to shoot this loading in that rifle. The barrel is 1.100” across at the flats which is the same width as the .50 cal rifles. The recommend max loading according to the Hodgdon loading manual No.24 for a .50 cal is 370gr maxi ball with 100 grains of FFG black powder. So I felt my loading was with in the safe zone. And according to the information you gave me. Thank you again for your comments always nice when you guys keep us on our toes and safety is ALWAYS first.

Juggernaut

 

[paulvallandigham]

Okay: YOu have me confused. Why would you use loading data for a .50 caliber conical in a .45 rifle shooting shot loads? Did you ever put the shot load on paper to see what kind of pattern you might be getting at various distances?

Like Zonie, I think you are using way too much powder, and WAY too much shot. It puts a lot of pressure on the insides of your rifle, stressing the threads on the nipple, and putting a lot of blow back pressure on the hole in the nipple.

You don't say at what distances you are shooting the squirrels. That makes a HUGE difference when putting shot down a rifled barrel. The rifling tends to spin the shot so it becomes spiral in shape as it travels down range. If you shoot at a moving paper target board, so you see how the shot strings out in front of the barrel, the spiral shape becomes clear. On a standing target, like most shots at squirrels, the spiral effect is much less apparent. You do see a wider pattern shot from a rifle than from a smoothbore of the same diameter.

The secret of using BLACK POWDER to propel shot is to use heavier shot- at least one number size greater-- than you would use out of a modern cartridge gun shooting smokeless powder. The velocities for BP are usually less,(to maintain a tighter pattern) and the heavier shot retains more pellet energy in each pellet to transfer to the small game you shoot. That means the heavier shot is still going to penetrate and kill the animal even though its traveling at a slightly slower speed than a smokeless powder load will travel.

 

[Juggernaut]

Okay: YOu have me confused. Why would you use loading data for a .50 caliber conical in a .45 rifle shooting shot loads? Did you ever put the shot load on paper to see what kind of pattern you might be getting at various distances?

Like Zonie, I think you are using way too much powder, and WAY too much shot. It puts a lot of pressure on the insides of your rifle, stressing the threads on the nipple, and putting a lot of blow back pressure on the hole in the nipple.

You don't say at what distances you are shooting the squirrels. That makes a HUGE difference when putting shot down a rifled barrel. The rifling tends to spin the shot so it becomes spiral in shape as it travels down range. If you shoot at a moving paper target board, so you see how the shot strings out in front of the barrel, the spiral shape becomes clear. On a standing target, like most shots at squirrels, the spiral effect is much less apparent. You do see a wider pattern shot from a rifle than from a smoothbore of the same diameter.

The secret of using BLACK POWDER to propel shot is to use heavier shot- at least one number size greater-- than you would use out of a modern cartridge gun shooting smokeless powder. The velocities for BP are usually less,(to maintain a tighter pattern) and the heavier shot retains more pellet energy in each pellet to transfer to the small game you shoot. That means the heavier shot is still going to penetrate and kill the animal even though its traveling at a slightly slower speed than a smokeless powder load will travel.

Paul,
Why? The barrel is 1.100 inches wide at the flats, which happens to be the same width of a .50 cal barrel. After contacting the manufacturer I was told that barrel will withstand the working pressures of .50 cal. Loads. I took the proof mark on the barrel which is 950 kp/cm2 then converted to PSI using the formula of kp/cm2 X 14.22 = PSI the total fell well below the safe limits of this barrel as I was told by the manufacturer. Zonie made the comment that I was shooting too much powder. So I was telling him the reason why I was using these loads and they were safe. Next the pattern is absolutely terrible at reduced loading. I spent many hours researching this and testing. There is no signs of structural stress on the barrel nor is there any signs of metal fatigue on the nipple or the surrounding metal. And found this to be the best loading for this rifle/shotgun. And is entirely safe to shoot. My original question was about boring it out to .049” dia which is the standard .50 cal barrel size. And may still do that since the rifle can with stand the working pressures of .50cal loadings. Thank you for your interesting comments.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Fine. That is not what I was talking about. I never worry about pressures in a modern steel barrel.

Those heavy loads in a smaller caliber smoothbore just are not going to pattern well. That is the problem you are overlooking. Its why we have suggested you reduce the loads.

Shooting shot out of a rifled barrel already leaves lots of lead behind, shaved off by the lands and deposited in the grooves of the rifling. What the lands do to the shot pellets isn't very nice either, nor does it contribute to the aerodynamics of the shot pellets. All this leads to poor patterns, with shot that literally falls out of the load within the first 20 yards. You can see this shooting test patterns at 10, 15, 18, and 20 yards, and then at 25 yards.

When you push that shot out the barrel FASTER, with powerful powder charges, the shot hits the air and begins to separate faster, leaving you with thin patterns( not many pellets in the circle). Remember that what goes into the air faster, SLOWS Faster.

Take three balloons that are round( party favors) and the same size. Use one and really crank up and try to throw it as far across your living room as possible. Put all your speed and might behind the throw. Mark where you were standing, and then mark where the balloon lands. Do this test 3-5 times and use an average, to be fair. Now, just shove that balloon across the living room and see where it lands. Again, test this 3-5 times, and use the average for your mark. Now increase the speed of your shove until you get the balloon to travel its maximum distance. I guarantee you that this distance is further than that full wind up and hard throw you started this exercise with.

Now, take three balloons, hold them together in one hand(pinch the three ends of the balloons between your thumb and forefinger) and throw them the same speed that gave you the maximum distance for the single balloon. Mark where the three balloons land. Note how far apart they are using a ruler.

Now reduce the amount of " push" you put on those three balloons until you achieve a place where the balloons travel the farthest forward, but stay the closest together. It will be using a speed of push less than that optimum speed to push the one balloon the farthest.

What this will teach you is the fact that air pushes against all sides of a round object( pellet)or ball. The faster you push that ball, or those pellets out of the muzzle, the faster they slow, and the wider they spread. Its called, " Blowing the pattern".

1/2 oz. loads of shot propelled by 1 1/4- 1 1/2" dram loads of powder are what produce the best patterns in a .410 bore shotgun. If you want maximum energy at 25 yards(75 feet) to kill a squirrel, consider using #6 or even #5 shot, because they will retain pellet energy better, and longer than the lighter sizes of shot.

Or, you can go the other way, and use very small shot, like #8, to increase the pellet count in these small loads. The total pellet energy of all the pellets that will hit that squirrel will equal the energy of One pellet of #5 shot that hits the same squirrel at the same distance. The problem I see using small shot out of rifled barrels is that more shot pellets are damaged by the rifling, and the smaller pellets are damaged MORE than larger pellets. So, while you start out with more pellets in the load, that might not translate into enough pellets on the target at 25 yards to be meaningful.

Personally, I think you can get closer than 75 feet to most squirrels and not have to worry so much about hitting it, even with the larger shot, that give fewer pellets in a pattern. I like the larger shot so that a pellet can be expected to penetrate the thick fur, and hide of the squirrel to reach vital organs. They also produce a lot of shock, that often kills the squirrel by itself.

 

[Juggernaut]

Thanks for the information Paul. I tested several 100 different loadings thru this firearm and the current load works, shoots,and is the tightest and most accurate pattern.

Juggernaut