Identification and help with Kmart/Japan(?) flint pistol

[fourbore]

I have two issue the first is what do I have and the second is how or should I shoot this. I will post a few images in two steps and ask for help with identification of who & when this was made first. The big question to follow in post 2.

I purchased the gun, so; I should know more. I forgot. My best guess is 1985 -1995 maybe from KMart or a similar dept store of the time.

It is approx 69 caliber flintlock. It looks like it should fire. The stock is shinny becasue I tore it down to debug issues and took opportunity to oil the wood.

 

[fourbore]

The big question: Is this gun safe to shoot and what will it take to get a good spark?

I dont understand what is going on with the breech plug. It is probably not screwed in. Could be. Or it was press fit and welded and turned down. The tang has weld. It looks perfect from the top. That is a concern. But; then it seems the gun was sold as a shooter because the flash hole is drilled all way through.

There was no spark at all. I swapped a flint. Cannot remember where I got the flint that was on the gun. I did shoot muzzle loaders way back when and I would have had supplies at that time. After a lot of testing, I notice the hammer only fell 1/2 way when I pull the trigger. I dissembled the lock, stoned a few burs. I removed metal chips from initial manufacture. The hammer falls harder and I get an occasion little (very little) hint of a spark. I am guessing the main spring is on the weak side. I think the pan is pretty hard. That is based on observing minimal damage after many flint strikes. I dont know.

If it wont shoot, I can hang it back on the wall. If safety is a concern I could proof test.

One more issue is the stock would need bedding behind the bolster. That is a seriosuly bad spot. Looks fine, cosmetically. I can say more later. I dont need help with that. The gun looks like it should work, but under the hood it is lacking.

 

[sawyer04]

It looks good, I couldn't tell if it is one of those that has a welded breech, back end of the barrel. I would load it with 30/ 40 grains of powder, patch and ball. little powder in the flintlock pan. Take it down range about fifty yards, tie it down real good and with a string on the trigger, cock it and pull the string while behind some sort of barrier.
I have proofed barrels this way in the early years of gun making with a fuse stuck in the touch hole. Yes, back in the 60's we actually had smithys that could make a barrel.

 

[fourbore]

sawyer04, I like the cannon fuse idea. There is a problem, my fuse is around 0.09 and the touch hole is smaller, around 0.075. I would have to look for smaller fuse. Maybe from a fire cracker? If I used a fuse, I could remove the barrel for a proof test. Your load sound light for a test. I would have though more like 100 grains and double balls.

Priority 1, is a good spark. Without that it will be back on the wall with that fresh coat of oil on the stock.

 

[Phil Coffins]

That barrel is made by drilling the bore as a blind hole never going threw all the way. The tang was welded on the breech so there is no plug. I would consider it safe but it never hurts to proof it. Put the charge of your choice and prime the pan. Close the frizzen on a length of fuse of any size it needn’t go in the vent. I will be impressed if that lock could be made to fire with any regularity!

 

[Grenadier1758]

Most likely the lack of sparks is due to an improperly hardened frizzen. When you tried to draw sparks, did the flint leave big gouges on the face of the frizzen? May need to put a sole on the face of the frizzen to get it to spark.

 

[fourbore]

OK, you got me thinking. First I dont see any deep gouges or even shallow gouges into the frizzen. I fear the main spring is weak. I have no way to measure that. I took some rubber surgical tubing and pulled on the hammer as I pulled the trigger. I got sparks! I can now see where the flint is striking the frizzen. Would a scale on the hammer pull tell me anything. I dont know if I have a suitable scale or what is a good reading.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Is anything dragging on the lock internal parts? Could the tumbler be dragging in the lock mortise? Could the lock bolts be pulling the lock to tightly in the lock mortise? Have you tried testing the lock when it is removed from the gun?

 

[Zonie]

Looking for anything that would slow down the cock from falling is well worth the trouble. Just to make real sure the tumbler was well lubricated I would dump the whole lock into a pan of motor oil. Of course I would remove the flint and the flint wrap before I did this and I wipe off any oil that remained on exposed areas after it was done but on this lock, because the tumbler (the part with the notches in it) doesn't have a bridle to support the outer end, there is always going to be a lot of friction between the tumbler and the lock plate that will slow down any movement. (The picture showing the inside of the lock seems to say this was already done.)

 

[Phil Coffins]

Checking the two flintlocks I have the Large Siler lock required 10 lbs to start the hammer back and cames to 12 lbs at full cock. The Chamber colonial lock starts at 10 lbs and decreases to 7 lbs at full cock. Both are good locks and are very dependable.
Your lock’s cocking weight is only one part of the question. Having no bridle and crude construction is going to limit the chances of it being made useful. Your experiment with the tubing is a smart move and shows that the frizzen is at least hard enough on the surface so the weakness of the main spring coupled with the lack of over all quality is the issue.

 

[fourbore]

The last 3 posts regarding the tumbler and rubbing parts and design (no bridle) - Phil, Zonie and Grenadaier all point the same direction. I looked at this area before I posted. I had experienced one case where the hammer did not fully drop to hit the pan! I removed a burr from the tumbler that was digging into the lock plate. I also noted the tumbler was unsupported an seemed a sloppy fit. Maybe just enough to explain phils comment 4 posts back. I did not know the terminology (bridle) or if that was all that bad. The shaft on the tumbler wants to go cockeye when it operates.

I tried a trigger pull gage on the top of the hammer. Around 9-10 pounds at 1/2 cock. Thanks Phil, I feel my spring is in the ball park.

I have to stop and think about my next move, if any. This maybe getting over my pay grade. The tumbler has a 2nd nipple for a bridle. Someone saved a few cents making this lock.

I will add another image.

 

[Phil Coffins]

Here’s a similar low grade lock that didn’t have a bridle for the tumbler. I made this crude bridle and added the screw. It helps but was more work then anyone with more brains then time should do. Being a dumb old retired guy time is plentiful and the challenge to make it work made it worth doing. Note to that the main spring on this lock is much longer then yours which is a good thing.
IMG_0404 by Oliver Sudden, on Flickr

 

[fourbore]

Phil - That looks good. I am dumb and retired, not sure that is enough.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I was assistant Manager at a gun shop outside Philadelphia in 1978 and we sold two varieties of that gun. Both made in Japan. One had a two piece barrel. an Octagonal or hexagonal breech for a few inches and then a cannon muzzle style round barrel screwed into the front of the 3 or 4 inch breech end of the barrel. Inside the barrel there was be a lip, very rough in some of the guns. and quite dangerous in the ones having the rough lip inside the bore. As I recall, they were imported by Century Arms in Vermont. We also sold a long gun variety. One we sold blew up and killed 2 brothers near Valley Forge. The chain I worked for sent a memo telling us to pack up all remaining guns and ship them back. Of course we had no way of knowing who purchased the ones we sold because no records were kept.

I mentioned two varieties. The other had a solid steel barrel, not two pieces.

On both models the springs were not properly tempered and the frizzens were made of soft steel and rarely sparked enough to ignite a charge. Frankly when I first saw them, I thought they were replica guns. They did not even say "Black Powder only" As I recall, we sold a few dozen of the pistols for $29.99 each.

I would not attempt to fire them. I have an Ultra Hi Tower pistol, probably made at the same factory, that is in less worthy condition to be fired. The lock parts are all mild steel. The barrel is at least one piece with a breech plug.

The breech system on that gun is not necessarily bad because of the weld. I have built guns using blind drilled bores and fastened tangs to them. However, the last such barrel had a 3/4 barrel wall between the exterior of the breech and the bottom of the powder chamber. A right hefty amount of solid steel.

 

[toot]

I think that the weld I s put on there to hold the tang on to the rear of the barrel and no breach plug be cause it was turned down / out of a piece of bar stock when made. so the tang could not be screwed into the barrel and had to be welded onto it.

 

[Rudyard]

One of these Japonees 'dragoon pistols' I bought years ago I proofed it smashing the stock in the process, but no ,loss I restocked it ,Hardly worth the effort. I was working at the time in a pulp mill town in British Columbia '.Duds gun shop' Florida sold them as replica's. No liscence . But reaching Canada customs they advised me,'' It was made to fire since the box has instructions how to load it'' .So I got a Police permit and it duly arrived in a box that once held a percussion revolver Duds had used for packing it in . Reminds me of a dagger & a pistol sent me from a deceased Cousins effects . Well I could only think it might be a dragoon pistol he restocked in pine .I rang up customs he says" its a flintlock ", " OK it must be the unexpected dragoon" so I did the paper work and duly arrived an SA Holbine dagger (War trophy my dad gave his ) and a crude matchlock me & Jim my cousin as lads made in a wood camped in Lincolnshire one Sunday as you arn't suppose to shoot on Sunday ,My name was branded on the stock ,Junk really ,But his widow thought ide like it .. So much for Customs expertise . Mind you this can work for you. I once came into Heathrow from India with two double rifles . 'Bit of the Raj coming home" he remarked and a pile of other goodies antigues where duty free , but my estimate of the goodies value was on the scant side . . However he says "Well by your figures that's 10 pounds duty . " I replied "OK but I only have ten US $ on me ". Which was true ." Ile have to leave them & come back in a day or so " He replies "Oh I see , Don't come it too often, bugger off " and away I happily went .
Rudyard