Getting a real barrel from Bobby Hoyt for my 'Victorian' Balkan matchlock

[Flint62Smoothie]

Woo hoo! Bought this year's ago for cheap, really cheap ... taking the chance that it might be able to be made into something someday, but also learning from RickyStL that it was likely built as a Victorian copy. It was "the thing" in those days to decorate your house or castle with arms that looked real and may have been 75% or better 'real' parts, but mostly had tubes for barrels or locks that were non-functioning replicas.

This Balkan matchlock is adorned with scrimmed horn inlays. Mr. Hoyt is going to replace the OD and profile of the barrel, but leave enough 'meat' on the end for me to fashion a fluted cannon muzzle, aka Pukka's excellent Tusco-Emelian matchlock.

Balkan matchlock (I will build a new lock assembly)

Pukka's build

 

[PhDBrewer]

Keep us posted!

 

[TobJohn]

Victorians and mishandling historic objects. An Iconic duo

On a positive note, should be a fun build!

 

[rickystl]

Hi Flint

What a cool project. What ever you decide to do with the lock, keep the lion's face, For some strange reason, I find it attractive in this case. LOL
I thought this gun had many of the hallmarks of a Victorian era replica. As you mentioned, assembled from a combination of original period parts and new (for then) hand made parts. Note the inlays don't reflect any particular art work and the lion head on the lock plate. The purpose of the build was just to create that "WOW" effect while mounted on a wall. Not to attempt to copy any original piece. Just something that "might" have been made during the original period to the uneducated. Purely decoration.

Sometime during the years of the Victorian era antique weapons (then) became all the rage with interior decorators and their clients throughout much of Europe. In fact, the demand was so great that there simply was not enough existing original specimens to satisfy that demand. Small shops set up to make copies of various weapons. Often including some original period parts along with newly made parts. They made everything. Guns, blades, pole arms, helmets, shields, even full suites of armor (both miniature and full size).
These Victorian copies today seem to have a small collector market of their own. Even ladies handbags were made with a large amount of metal trim attempting to copy 16th Century styles.

Rick

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

UPDATE:

It turns out that the barrel in it is real; not a fake! A 75-caliber one, bore not too bad (didn't even try ScotchBrite in it yet) but it should clear up.

STOCK
The stock is decorated in what I would call 'primitive' horn inlays, noooooooooooooo way even getting towards the level of European apprentices, nevermind Masters, or even Pukka's work. To make it 'shootable', all interior wood I can access will be treated with a thin penetrarting epoxy to ensure it stays together.

LOCK
The lock plate is huge, but it is what it is. I will keep the Lion-head figure at the pan, but the pan is forward of the touch hole, that could not be seen readily, due to how deep the barrel was set into the stock and from crud.

My intent for the pan is to replace it or modify it so the pan cover swings the other way, where I'll mill a circular pan aside the TH and fab a new cover. I will also have to make a sear bar and lever to the trigger, and quite possibly a new serpentine, unless I can make it be a snap matchlock.

NOTE - Barrel ‘shimmed’ to show where the TH on the barrel is.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

BARREL update:

The barrel was screwed (not pinned) into the stock using long, thin-diameter homemade wood screws. They were an absolute beyatch to get out and that's why I'm just getting around to this project now, even though I have had the piece for years now. I had to wear away a thin Dremel slotting disc until it as 3/8" round and then used that to cut a slot in the heads of the screws, as whomever put the barrel in, screwed them in and cut off the heads, then filed them sorts flush.

The barrel is a robust 75-caliber smoothbore barrel 26-1/4" long, where the barrel in the stock is round, but there are the 5 flats that show there were filed in a long taper to the muzzle, which measure > 7/8". The breech measures 1-1/4". There is extensive, albeit somewhat crude, chiseling decorations done on the barrel, including the initial of 'A. Babio'.

The barrel underneath is clearly marked in 2 places as "Hadley2". Has anyone ever seen such a MZL barrel?

I am sending this barrel out to Bobby Hoyt to have the integrity of the breech plug checked and then the bore honed. Hopefully ... she'll be able to shoot again! I may even add a tube 'aperture or peep' rear sight to the breech.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Very cool gun! Looking at that pan and touch hole - could it even fire?

 

[BillinOregon]

That's quite a critter you have there. Be interesting to hear Bobby's thoughts on it once he has had a chance to examine it.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Flint

Thanks for the latest photos and description. I'm more convinced than ever that this is a Victorian era piece. The lock being fasten with wood screws from the outside of the lock plate and other areas shows this was assembled as strictly a display piece. Not meant to be dis-assembled for cleaning and other maintenance. The reuse of an original barrel is interesting, but not really surprising. (Wonder what it was originally mounted to ?) The original vent hole being way out of line with the pan did not really matter in this case. The average person viewing it on display wouldn't know the difference. The crude engraving and chisel work on top of the barrel looks as if it were done while in the Victorian shop. The original looking Hadley2 stamps might indicate an original British barrel maker. The barrel does look old. The overall gun is fascinating in it's own way, and is a good representation of these Victorian era replicas.

BARREL: Assuming you want to shoot the original barrel. Sending the barrel to Bobby Hoyt is a good idea IMHO. He can remove the breech plug and inspect the thread integrity. His method for burnishing the bore is way better than anything I could dream up using home-type shop methods. And while there, he can plug the original vent hole so you can relocate it later at a different spot.

I have an idea, but a big question first: Is the breech plug tang fastened to the top of the barrel ? Or is it part of the breech plug ?

Rick

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I have an idea, but a big question first: Is the breech plug tang fastened to the top of the barrel? Or is it part of the breech plug?

The tang is part of the breech plug, so a real barrel for sure! I used ScothBrite and J&B Bore Compound and the barrel cleaned up well! If the plug integrity checks out ... it'll be a shooter for sure!

The TH is about 1/16" forward of the plug, so I'll see if the old TH can be welded closed and I'll make a new one further out, or, will use an end mill and will start the hole for a 3/8" diameter thread Chamer-type White Lighning TH liner to move it up towards the pan a bit. I can always make a new pan if needed, as it is dovetailed into the lockplate. The again, I could dovetail one to the barrel too!

 

[rickystl]

OK. Here is a thought/question: The current TH is about 1/16 in front of the face of the breech plug. That sounds about right for a typical barrel/vent set-up. Or close to it. Say you plug the existing TH and make a new TH to line up with the existing pan location. That would seem to create a long distance between the new TH and the current face of the breech plug. With a light to moderate load of powder, and a patched ball, would the priming powder even reach the main powder charge ? With a heavier powder charge, the priming powder would likely ignite the main charge. But, would ignition of the main charge in the barrel be traveling backwards rather than forwards towards the muzzle - even if for only a brief moment ? If so, I would think that would effect velocity and extra, unnecessary breech pressure ? Then again, maybe my ballistics are wrong and I'm over-thinking this. ? But I still have another idea. LOL

Rick

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

No, cannot go to a TH location of the exisiting pan, but using the existing TH as the extreme left edge of a hole to tap a 3/8” White Lightning liner, that would move it ‘forward’ somewhere maybe close to 3/16” more?

Then I can weld/fill the old pan recess and mill a new one to align to the new TH.

 

[rickystl]

No, cannot go to a TH location of the exisiting pan, but using the existing TH as the extreme left edge of a hole to tap a 3/8” White Lightning liner, that would move it ‘forward’ somewhere maybe close to 3/16” more?

Then I can weld/fill the old pan recess and mill a new one to align to the new TH.

That does indeed sound like the best option. My idea was a bit radical anyway, so I won't post it here. LOL

Rick

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

UPDATE - I just got the barrel back from Mr. Hoyt!

I sent it to him to #1 - make SURE it was safe to shoot, so to have the breech plug integrity checked, the existing touch hole welded closed (so I can re-drill a new one, whereas the old barrel was added to make the arm look complete) and to hone the barrel smooth so as to make it shootable, provided that the breech and barrel proved sound. The work for this barrel cost me $60 and 13.35 for the partial shipping (determined by percentage of the total work price), for a total of $73.35.

Note: That is more of a 'stain' at the end of the bore, but inside the bore looks new, soooo bright that I cannot get a good picture of it!

 

[rickystl]

Hi Flint

Great news about the barrel. Sounds like the barrel is now ready to use. Now you can address the lock.

I've always been relieved to send an old, original barrel to Bobby Hoyt first.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Since the Victorian' got up' piece is an antique in its own right I have difficulty seeing why alter it , as I expect you have guns enough . However you've made your choice & ether way you have a conversation piece . The Kempton stuff shows there are many others seek the new way backwards ! .Cant be bad .
Regards Rudyard