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Front Stuffers and the Hollow Point?

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ORBushman

"In the Woods"
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Have always shot PRB but, curious lately how a conical might perform. My main question is, when loading a conical that has a hollow point, how does ramming it down the barrel not mess up the shape of the hollow point? I've watched a few videos on YT and, seeing some of those guys get ridiculously crazy on ensuring the bullet was seated, got me to wondering how in the world do they not cause said bullet from becoming mishappened and affecting accuracy?! I understand making sure the bullet is seated, and if the ramrod is marked accordingly, I see no reason for all the jamming up and down they do on these rounds! Seems a good way to deform the ball!

Anyway, share your insights and thoughts but, remember I've never shot them so, always looking to learn. :thumb:
 
It's been my personal observation that waaayyyy too many UTube videos are worth what you paid to watch them.
This seems to be especially true when the subject is firearms. I've run tests for load development with Buffalo HB/HP and Hornady "Great Plains" HB/HP, among others. I didn't take any special care to protect the nose of the bullet. Loaded as usual. Once I found my best combination the Hornady shot best, giving me "one ragged hole" at 50 yds off a rest, out of a T/C 1:48 original barrel.
 
I'd be very very leery of utoob videos on guns. Any videos I watch will be from folks I trust like Black Powder Maniac. Reenactorisms and misinformation abound so be careful who you watch.

I shoot minies and yes, pounding with the ramrod is detrimental to accuracy. I tried it as an experiment and yes, accuracy suffers, especially at 100yd+
 
There are special ramrod tips for hollowpoint bullets... or so I've heard anyway. I routinely shoot JHP bullets in a sabot. They perform well and perhaps because they are JACKETED the hollow point is not harmed by the ramrod tip.

Most conicals load pretty easily, so you should not really have to take precautions other than to leave the hammer in the tool box.

Damage to the bullet that affects accuracy is more noticeable at the base of the bullet, not the nose. Be careful when you seat the bullet. This is one instance where T/C QLA is possibly worth something.
 
I wouldn't mind watching one of these videos if you have a link.
I watch a lot of videos and have never seen anyone use a HP in a ML.
But a conical is a conical and I would hope the curvature of the ramrod's end would help prevent any deformation. Be it HP or RB.

I reload using a lot of cast bullets, one of them a HP with a hollow base, and my bullets never have marks on them. But I've seen pictures of others' handloaded rounds and you can see a ring around the nose that the seating die left. I guess it wouldn't take much to deform a cast bullet if the projectile's profile is too far off from what is pushing it down.

ETA: I should mention I don't watch any inline ML videos :)
 
I see no reason why a solid conical can't be made into a hollow point bullet. Providing the removal of lead up front doesn't shift the center of gravity too far rearward. Making the bullet unstable.

It's easy to make a coring tool with just a metal tube and a drill bit the diameter of the hollow. They can be purchased too.

Modern firearms can get away with hollow points very easily due to the speed and rotation of the bullets. Mobetta stability. That's not the case with M/Ls and lead projectiles that are heavy and slow.

M/Ls are about a generation and a half away from people who used rocks and arrows to kill things. Not much room for technological advancements.

Set up with just a three quarter turn thread engagement. So you don't spend all your time screwing and unscrewing the high-tech bullet retaining device.
 

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I have mostly used the Hornady Great Plains bullets in my Renegade over the years. For the sake of not getting too long winded here I'm going to omit alot of backstory and simple say that since I started loading metallic cartridges a bit over a decade ago, I've filled in alot of knowledge gaps from when I first got into muzzleloading in 1996.

That said, I never really pursued tight 100yd groups. Followed instructions on my TC manual for min/max charge levels and powder granulation and was satisfied with 4" groups at 50yds for where I hunt in the woods.

More recently I kind of started fresh with my approach to developing loads being more focused on tight groups than gross horsepower and this has worked out well to the point I think I can do as well at 100yds now as I used to do at 50yds.

As to loading my projectiles, yeah I'll lightly "jackhammer" them (for lack of my ability to come up with a better word) once I feel the bullet is against the powder. I'm not pulling the ramrod halfway out the barrel and slamming it, just a few light and short taps to make sure she's tight against the powder.

Now, compared to a lot of folks here, I'm still on the uphill side of the learning curve, especially with PRB as I don't shoot them much. But I see a lot of folks staying how they swab between shots very little and in many cases never. The lubed patch seems to be a key player in this. Where am I going with this? Here... Using a Maxi type projectiles with no patch it seems general conventional wisdom indicates they are prone to more fouling of the bore after the shot where PRB usually results in less. Just my opinion and it may well be wrong, but I think something as simple as a spit patch between shots with Maxis will be helpful here. A bullet that goes in with a degree of difficulty tends to cause the shooter to want to go gorilla on it to ensure it's properly seated. Last time I went shooting I was using the TC Maxi-Ball (not a hollow point) and tried not swabbing between shots. The fourth shot loaded with an uncomfortable level of difficulty where the first couple shots went down the barrel with somewhat relative ease. I concluded that a spit patch or even a pre-lubed (gasp) patch down in and out once prior to reloading does help with this.

Sorry for not making good on not being long winded, but all that to say a Maxi that goes in hard due to some fouling buildup I think is a likely cause for people getting overzealous with ramming it home. And ML Maxis not generally being as hard a bullet as hard cast designed to be pushed harder in cartridge rifles I can totally see where they can be deformed on the nose by hard hammering.
 
I have mostly used the Hornady Great Plains bullets in my Renegade over the years. For the sake of not getting too long winded here I'm going to omit alot of backstory and simple say that since I started loading metallic cartridges a bit over a decade ago, I've filled in alot of knowledge gaps from when I first got into muzzleloading in 1996.

That said, I never really pursued tight 100yd groups. Followed instructions on my TC manual for min/max charge levels and powder granulation and was satisfied with 4" groups at 50yds for where I hunt in the woods.

More recently I kind of started fresh with my approach to developing loads being more focused on tight groups than gross horsepower and this has worked out well to the point I think I can do as well at 100yds now as I used to do at 50yds.

As to loading my projectiles, yeah I'll lightly "jackhammer" them (for lack of my ability to come up with a better word) once I feel the bullet is against the powder. I'm not pulling the ramrod halfway out the barrel and slamming it, just a few light and short taps to make sure she's tight against the powder.

Now, compared to a lot of folks here, I'm still on the uphill side of the learning curve, especially with PRB as I don't shoot them much. But I see a lot of folks staying how they swab between shots very little and in many cases never. The lubed patch seems to be a key player in this. Where am I going with this? Here... Using a Maxi type projectiles with no patch it seems general conventional wisdom indicates they are prone to more fouling of the bore after the shot where PRB usually results in less. Just my opinion and it may well be wrong, but I think something as simple as a spit patch between shots with Maxis will be helpful here. A bullet that goes in with a degree of difficulty tends to cause the shooter to want to go gorilla on it to ensure it's properly seated. Last time I went shooting I was using the TC Maxi-Ball (not a hollow point) and tried not swabbing between shots. The fourth shot loaded with an uncomfortable level of difficulty where the first couple shots went down the barrel with somewhat relative ease. I concluded that a spit patch or even a pre-lubed (gasp) patch down in and out once prior to reloading does help with this.

Sorry for not making good on not being long winded, but all that to say a Maxi that goes in hard due to some fouling buildup I think is a likely cause for people getting overzealous with ramming it home. And ML Maxis not generally being as hard a bullet as hard cast designed to be pushed harder in cartridge rifles I can totally see where they can be deformed on the nose by hard hammering.
Well, where to begin? Yes, you probably will get more fouling with a conical bullet vs. a patched round ball, mostly because you are usually using a heavier powder charge. What charge are you using now? I seldom exceed 70 grains of powder in .45, .50 and .54 caliber guns with a conical or sabotted bullet. Of late I have been using an "ignition" charge of 7 grains of actual black powder under the main charge of Triple 7 to preserve my black powder supply and use up the Triple 7 I have on the shelf. This makes for less fouling as well... kind of a happy side effect.

Some have used spit patches forever, and I'm told it works, but I am unwilling to suck on a recycled piece of silk, linen or pillow ticking. Maybe I should have washed the recycled items before cutting them up. I generally use T/C Bore Butter, but I have also used olive oil, aerosol cooking spray, lard and other non-petroleum products.

Now, you will read the term "seasoning" in many threads on this forum, with some folks readily accepting the concept, others disparaging it. I am not going to argue whether or not my bores are seasoned or not. I can't crawl inside my bore to check and at the microscopic level ALL bores look like sewer pipes, though some are worse than others. What I CAN tell you is that I don't have fouling issues and seldom use more than three patches for cleaning after I am done shooting... which for me is seldom more than three shots.

What I would respectfully suggest is that you start using some sort of non-petroleum based grease to lube your bullets other than that waxy manure that Hornady puts on their Great Plains bullets (if memory serves). I would recommend T/C Bore Butter, but others have used bear grease, coon grease, lard, lamb's tallow and Crisco to lube your bullets. DON'T use any petroleum based greases.

Also, lighter charges give you less recoil, may give you better accuracy and don't really result in that much loss of velocity vs. heavier charges. As I mentioned, burning less powder makes for less fouling.

At the risk of offending some here, you COULD season your bore. This is done by shooting it with non-petroleum oils/greases. It can be done with conicals, but patched round balls actually work better in my experience. Once you have fired fifty or so patched round balls over the course of a few days, you may find that you have less fouling and easier loading. Others will tell you different. We tend to be a bunch of old farts here, so we are "opinionated".

Now, I will offend yet more people and say that I use sabotted bullets. I think that they are an improvement over conicals. Again, others disparage them.

Use a metal range rod for range work. Hickory ramrods work, but one day you may break one and that will cure you of trusting them again. Leave the hammer in the tool box. If you have to utilize blunt instruments to seat your projectile, you are doing something WRONG.

The more you shoot, the better you will shoot and the better your gun will perform. I have a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle that I purchased used some years ago. The gun has a 1:66 twist rate in a .54 caliber. Bore was in pretty rough shape when I got it, but it has always shot pretty well. The more I shoot it, the easier it is to load and clean. When I got it, the end of the ramrod was mushroomed over from somebody hitting it with something. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do!"

.... and you are not the only one to get long-winded on this forum! ;)
 
All good points and suggestions Sir and exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned that I still feel I am on the uphill side of the learning curve. 🍻

To answer a couple of your questions, back in the day I was young and obsessed with horsepower and while I tried lower charges within TCs recommended load tables, I ended up using their max charge of 2f under my Maxis. I don't recall at the moment if it was 90 or 100gr, but I'm leaning toward 100 without looking it up.

Fast forward a number of years and a bit of knowledge and experience gained, I recently tried the base load of 80gr 2F with the TC 320gr Maxi-Ball and was so pleased with the group at 50yds from my Hawken I didn't even try going up from there. The bullet holes were nearly touching.

As to lube with Maxis, I always just loaded them as they came pre-lubed out of the box, setting aside those that had lube come out of the grooves or scavenging some up from inside the box in an attempt to re-pack the grooves. I have no doubt that more attention to lube can yield some improvement, just haven't ventured down that path yet.

As to whether or not these barrels really "season", I don't know and I don't have a strong opinion either way. But I do see sense in those who assert that they don't and it makes the most sense to me that the barrels are more apt to "lap" or "wear in" with use, albeit likely a small degree as the steel barrel is alot harder than the lead projectile. Seasoning to me involves a good deal of sustained heat and a fair amount of an oily substance, be it petroleum based or otherwise. I really don't see those conditions being met in the shooting or deep cleaning afterwords of a ML.

For after shoot cleaning before storage, I use hot water with dish soap. Some don't like hot water as it can cause flash over rusting. Honestly, I have experienced that to a mild degree if I let it cool too long before swabbing the barrel with protectant which is dry patches followed by a buttered patch or two and then a patch wet but not over saturated with a quality gun oil. But after the whole routine is complete my barrel is clean and stays that way for storage.

Side note: I do like the lube that TC puts on their Maxis better than the much dryer lube Hornady uses. Mainly because it tends not to become dislodged and fall out as easily when you are starting it
 
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I often put a hollow point on my mini's. they shoot just as well as the solid points for accuracy, but really do a number on what they hit.But I don't hammer them in.
 
All too often folks moving into ML are eaten up with their smokeless powder experience and come what may they’re hell-bent-for-leather to think that those ole round balls ain’t fitting for nothing so there they go trying to convince themselves that 300 years of historical data is just absolutely not worth a manure! Conical bullets are fantastic…..for Ned Roberts and his gang who used special equipment to ascertain that the conical configured bullets were seated into the bore correctly but we Rednecks ain’t got ‘special equipment’! Sixty years ago I tried every kind of conical bullet available along with the so-called buffalo bullet and using BLACK POWDER they wouldn’t hit due east! Having come through 60 years of High Power Competition Shooting and suffering from much inquisitiveness concerning historical information about the rifles of our forebears and just how accurate they could be, I set out to prove one way or the other what the answer was/is! I have several rifles with excellent barrels and over the past ten years I have proven to myself that the old dead guys had accurate rifles SHOOTING ROUND BALLS! I have shot many outstanding 5 and 10 shot groups at 100 yards and determined that they shoot surprisingly well out to 200 yards! This has been with flintlock and caplock both in .54 and .58 caliber! I shoot only Hornady swaged RB!
 
I see no reason why a solid conical can't be made into a hollow point bullet. Providing the removal of lead up front doesn't shift the center of gravity too far rearward. Making the bullet unstable.

It's easy to make a coring tool with just a metal tube and a drill bit the diameter of the hollow. They can be purchased too.

Modern firearms can get away with hollow points very easily due to the speed and rotation of the bullets. Mobetta stability. That's not the case with M/Ls and lead projectiles that are heavy and slow.

M/Ls are about a generation and a half away from people who used rocks and arrows to kill things. Not much room for technological advancements.

Set up with just a three quarter turn thread engagement. So you don't spend all your time screwing and unscrewing the high-tech bullet retaining device.
just wondering . those bullets seem to be hard cast [ as per gas check ?] do they open up a lot more with the hollow point? have you tested them?
 
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