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Found an old Navy Arms Zouave...

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tzvia

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used and am finally getting around to shoot it. It's a 'carbine' and has a Zoli barrel. It came with a bunch of conicals (and the lyman handle and mould-but i dont cast), which I plan on trying, along with some .570 balls and .010 and .015 patches today. Now I'm just getting into bp rifles, (I collect military c&r mainly) and this is my second bp rifle. I'm thinking of using RS and 2f777, with charges from 45-60gr, just punching paper. I suspect the conicals will be more accurate, guess i'm gonna find out! What would be the upper limit of powder charge on this rifle, Navy Arms website did not mention anything. And frankly, I've not seen a 'carbine' zouave anywhere else, how long ago was Navy Arms making these things, or is this the previous owner's frankenstein?

Lois
 
I have one....70gr ff will do ya jest fine wih minnies or round ball. I have read where some shoot as high as 110 gr powder with Minnies. Does yers have the 3 leaf rear sight?
100, 200, 300 yds?
Me thinks these were made in the 70's.
nice gun fer any big critter in the USA.
You will have to experiment with the charge to see how she shoots. Mine will shoot 8" high at 50 yds with the 100yd
sight and 70 gr fff powder. I put a sling on mine and am gonna use it huntin whitetails this season. Most of my shots wont be over 50 yds.
can ya post any pics? would like ta see yer gun.
AND " WELCOME TO THE FORUM !" You will find a whole bunch of great fellers here amd beaucoup information on any topic you can think up!

keep yer powder dry,
*** WV SCROUNGER *** :thumbsup:
 
In the dixie gun works catalog they show that all the mil. guns of civil war shoot 60 gr. FFg with an .015 patch . If it is a zouave i've never heard of a carbine one. It just might be a frankenstein. :front:
 
navy arms did make a chopped down zouave called the buffalo hunter. no barrel bands and adjustable sights. i use 60 gr. 777 and a lee modern minie 470 gr. full wadcutter in my zouave repro. it shoots about 6" high at 50 yds. i did file the rear notch deeper on the 100 yd leaf.
 
It also might not be a carbine?? It might be the Buffalo Hunter type carbine. That would make it a factory model and not a cut down Zoave. Either way as has been stated the military load was 60 grains. If I remember right when I got mine it said up to 110 grains. Now I will say with a heavey bullet at about 80 grains it starts to get bad on both ends of the rifle. Something below that should be good for just about anything in the US. You need to find the load that gives you good accuracy. Due to the rifling and twist of the Zoaves most of the guns down here seem to be best with a rather stout load, usually somewhere between 65 to 90 you just have to experiment. Don't forget PRB as they seem to be very accurate in those guns.
Fox :thumbsup:
 
I have the same gun. Dixie had it in their catalogs going back to at least the late 60's, and I bought mine as a salesman sample from the Navy Arms (Service Armament) store here in NJ back in the late 70's. I shoot Lyman minies that I cast myself and use 60 grains ffg. My son learned to shoot bp using this little gun and he loves it. He's been shooting it for 5 years and he's 15 now and he's not about to give it up.
Bob
 
let us know if its a zouave or a buff hunter. post a pic if you can. :blue: thanks
 
Navy arms made the Zouave in the late 70's, I had a couple. They shoot fine with 60-70 grains of 2f.Too much powder can blow the skirt out on the bullet and make them inaccurrate. I've shot deer with one and they do fine with the previously mentioned load. I beleive the originals would shoot thru 6 inch pine board at 600 yards. The barrel you have is an Antonio Zoli, one of the very best made. You got a keeper there. Have fun with it.
Oh ya, if you ever shoot a "cut the stake (or 2x4)" team shoot at 25 yds, put the mini in backwards with about 50 gr. 2f they blow a BIG hole. Thats what we would do. Not real accurate though.
 
Walrus-
The one we have is a Remington Zouave "carbine", same as the regular Zouave rifle but with a shorter 20" barrel. (It's listed in my 1965 Dixie Gun Works catalog.) Definitely not the Buffalo Hunter that Val Forgett was so fond of and used to good effect on his African big game hunts. I'll try to post a pic of our's for you in the next few days. Busy with the start of school right now.
 
If you're going to try Minie bullets, you should stick to using only real black powder FFg. Pyrodex needs to be compressed under reasonably good force to ignite consistently, and "Triple-7" maybe a little more potent than I want to use. Too heavy a charge of ANY propellant can sometimes cause distortion of the Minie bullets "skirt" which can really mess up any chance of accuracy.

There used to be a Lyman mould that cast a Minie of almost 600gr weight that was quite blunt and had a very thick "skirt" (hollow base). It was intended for use in guns (and shooters) that could tolerate heaviers powder charges and the bullets wouldnt' distort--due to the heavier base. This style Minie would be very difficult to find for purchase. But you see there are a lot of options available to those who do their own casting.

If you don't cast (or don't want to start), I'm sure there are plenty of people who would buy the bullet mould you have. That would give you some extra money for powder, bullets, and percussion caps.

Round balls may work better than any conical you try, so don't dismiss them until you can shoot about 5 or 6 different bullet styles and weights and see which works best. There is a 315gr Minie (mould still made by Lyman) that usually shoots rather well in these guns, but they might not be able to be located for purchase easily. Most people just cast them. They conserve lead supplies and are much easier on the gun and shooter, and "may" shoot better than any other bullet in a particular gun.

I've never seen a real need to go over 70gr FFg in one of these type of military ".58" cal rifles. There is a lot of "whompus" when using a 500gr Minie and 70gr of FFg. Properly applied, there are no huge beasties that you should have to fear. Again, shooting much more than 70gr can ruin the base of the bullet and destroy your accuracy.

Zoli manufactured Zouaves are supposedly some of the best made models. There is a model of the (~33" barrel) military version that has a shorter 26" barrel and the bayonet lug is gone, BUT it STILL has the brass bands around the barrel & stock. I can't see a whole lot of advantage to just taking 7" off of the barrel, but it may handle a little easier in heavy cover hunting. (who would really use a 2-ft long bayonet while hunting either...?) It's basically the same gun though.

There is also another model that doesn't look much like a Zouave at all, but more of a heavy hunting rifle. It has the same lock and a short heavy barrel, but with hunting style sights instead of the military folding leaf sights and I can't remember if it has a patchbox or not(?). This is the gun that Val Forgett of Navy Arms fame used to hunt the "Big-Five" in Africa.

PLEASE DO NOT use this data for loading your gun--but he used almost 200gr of FFFg powder and a 600gr+ conical bullets. I think that is a brutal load on "both ends" and there is NO NEED for anyone of us to even think about trying it. That particular gun/model may have been made of a higher grade of barrel steel, and had a recoil lug added to the barrel underside, and was "proofed" and tested for use with higher powder charges.

You mentioned about the possibility of this being the work of a "Frankenstein" (or also referred to by military gun collector purists as "Bubba's work". It is possible, but as WV Scrounger had remarked, we need to see some pictures (if you can) to tell you more precisely about what you have there.

NOTE: Navy Arms is supposedly making the Buffalo Hunter models again. I heard that these sell for over $600, so I know I won't ever be getting one. I'm too used to finding CVA Bobcats and Panthers at yard sales and flea markets selling for $60 or so... The Buff Hunter would be a very nice gun though. I seriously doubt that you have one of these currently made models, as I don't think Zoli has made these kind of guns since the '70's.

Good Find--whichever it is... post the pictures when you can, OK?

Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly
 
Well, Here is a pix
zouave1.jpg


Thanks for all the replies folks! As you can see, it's got the two barrel bands and the 3 leaf sight. I shot it w/.570 balls and .015 patches, 60 gr rs. It was about 3 ft high at 100 yds. So I then switched to the conicals I had, shot 60gr and 85 gr, and the gun still printed 3ft high. Not sure what to do about the sky high groups, maybe file down the notch in the leaf or build up the front site. I'll shoot it w/goex first, then figure out what to do. It's in great shape, that's why I bought it.
I next plan to build a flinter, and have been shopping around stuff like what track of the wolf has. Man, I knew this stuff would get to me. First the Pedersoli Tryon, then the Zouave, and now I wanna build something!

Thanks again all! Been lurking here since getting the Tryon and a couple of Uberti revolvers and I have picked up alot of good info here.

Lois
 
my euroarms zouave shot very high at 50 yds. i purchased another rear 100 yd leaf and filed the notch all the way down to the pivot bolt. now it shoots about 6"-8" high at 50 yds. my son's buffalo hunter shoots 470 gr minnies great at 50 yds with 60 gr 2f 777. thats a neat lookin' rifle you have there, kinda like havin' your own cannon. :blue:
 
First I need you to excuse my manners too... I get over-zealous and excite easily about replying about something that I am familiar with and forget the amenities.

Welcome to the Forum! Also, by your signing name to the post with the picture, I see that you are female. I really want to thank you for joining, as it's good to see that women are interested in shooting muzzleloaders. Most women shooters also have a refreshingly different view on things that us ol' male "hillbilly bears". Y'all don't have as many bad shooting habits to unlearn like most guys do...

Really glad your are here!

You have the shorter "Carbine" version of the Zouave that was an attempt at making it more suitable and easier handling for hunting purposes.

Since my reply was getting very lengthy (like usual), I sent you the rest as a personal/private message. Keeps the thread easier to read if the replies don't have too many long posts.

BestRegards and Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly:front:

PS I do use the PM feature to keep from cluttering up the threads very much sometimes. I also like your taste in wall hangings in the Zouave picture (I downloaded the image and adjusted brightness and the contrast).
 
Nice lookin carbine you got there ! This stuff gets very addictive just need a good cash flow :: Welcome aboard
 
I have a Zouave made by A. Zolli. It is stamped Sears Robuck & Co. with Ser. Number on the rear trigger guard tang. It was made in 1975.
Like all of these rifled muskets it shoots high. I put a drop of silver solder on the front sight and filed it to zero, works fine.
:redthumb:
Redwing
 
Just an aside, the water buffalo and a couple of others that Val forgett supposedly bagged with the Buffalo Hunter were actually "finished off" by his guide with a 458 mag. The shots of him with the game and the stories went a long way for sales of Navy Arms products. The 458 part was not widely known. Read this some time ago in an article about Val and His company.
 
I believe I also read about the Prof. Hunter / Guide finishing off the big wounded beasts with a .458 Win. Mag. as well. Kind of "takes the glory out of the story" eh? I always though that .58 caliber was kind of small compared to the 8, 4, and 2 bore muzzleloading double-guns of the past. Those critters are awfully big and nasty when peeved. Bet they weren't too happy about getting stung by a little .58 cal 610gr bullet. Now a 1200gr bullet containing a 60 gr explosive charge in the head might be a different story.

The American Bison is a lot different critter than a African Cape Buffalo too. I don't think they (Bison) have the extra steam & gritty determination to trample you into pulp.

ALWAYS use a big enough gun,
WV_Hillbilly

PS I never read or heard where being "over-armed" got any one killed--but being "under-armed"? that's a different tale!
 
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