Today we use special wads of\r grease to keep our percussion revolvers from chain firing. How did they prevent that when perc. revolvers were the latest tech. I doubt they would grease them especially on the southern plains were they would soon have a greasey mess at the bottom of holsters on hot summer days. I read somewhere that they used tighter fitting balls then we generaly use today. Any thoughts?
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I'm not sure about the wads. The idea would not be odd since both rifles and shotguns/muskets used patches or wadding. I agree about the lube in a hot climate and there is at least one photo (Maddox?) of a revolver with the unlubed balls visible in the ends of the chamber. One reason a wad might not be used is that you can cram in more powder without a wad. This is one area where some good documentation is needed. A lot of the revolvers used combustible cartridges which usually had neither wad nor lube.
This is what Colt said about loading the revolvers his company made.
First explode a cap on each nipple to clear them from oil or dust, then draw back the hammer to the half-cock, which allows the cylinder to be rotated; a charge of powder is then placed in one of the chambers, keeping the barrel up and a ball with the pointed end upwards without wadding or patch is put into the mouth of the chamber, turned under the rammer, and forced down with the lever below the surface of the cylinder, so that it cannot hinder its rotation
(care should be used in ramming down the ball not to shake the powder from the chamber, thereby reducing the charge).
This is repeated until all the chambers are loaded. Percussion-caps are then placed on the nipples on the right of the lock-frame, where, by drawing back the hammer in the full-cock
the arm is in condition for a discharge by pulling the trigger; a repetition of the same motion produces the like results with six shots without reloading.
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With properly fitting caps there is little danger of a chain fire as long as the caps are fully seated on the nipples and the ball/bullet sheared off a ring of lead while it was being rammed into the chamber.
First explode a cap on each nipple to clear them from oil or dust, then draw back the hammer to the half-cock, which allows the cylinder to be rotated; a charge of powder is then placed in one of the chambers, keeping the barrel up and a ball with the pointed end upwards without wadding or patch is put into the mouth of the chamber, turned under the rammer, and forced down with the lever below the surface of the cylinder, so that it cannot hinder its rotation
(care should be used in ramming down the ball not to shake the powder from the chamber, thereby reducing the charge).
This is repeated until all the chambers are loaded. Percussion-caps are then placed on the nipples on the right of the lock-frame, where, by drawing back the hammer in the full-cock
the arm is in condition for a discharge by pulling the trigger; a repetition of the same motion produces the like results with six shots without reloading.
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With properly fitting caps there is little danger of a chain fire as long as the caps are fully seated on the nipples and the ball/bullet sheared off a ring of lead while it was being rammed into the chamber.
arcticap
54 Cal.
IIRC, General Lee's revolver was discovered with some wax over the balls, perhaps not only to keep the powder dry but to serve the multi purpose of sealing the chambers from flame while also lubing during firing.
After all, a wax is a wax, over the ball is over the ball, a sealant is a sealant and a wax is a lube... :hmm:
After all, a wax is a wax, over the ball is over the ball, a sealant is a sealant and a wax is a lube... :hmm:
Many Klatch
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I have an 1858 Remington that I load per Colt's recommendations. I put in the powder, squeeze in the ball and then cap. I replaced the nipples with stainless steel ones from TOW. I have not had a chain fire in a couple of hundred shots. I'm not sure what all the lube and wads are for except to increase the bottom line for the vendors.
Many Klatch
Many Klatch
I have litte patience or respect for those who refuse to wad or grease their C&B revolvers. Just because "it ain't chain fired yet" doesn't mean it won't. A club member once said just that to me then went to the firing line and shot. He chain fired and I can tell you it was a dramatic event. It happens. As for in the 'old days', those guys were fighting wars of one kind or another. Speed was often a priority over safety. If pure soft lead is used for the balls or bullets injury rarely occurs so they (probably) sacrificed use of grease for speed. For our purposes, I consider it a must in loading a revolver.
zimmerstutzen
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many years ago at an Army-Navy Store in Reading PA, there was an Italian made walker on display that had part of the cylinder blown away. I like shooting my C&B guns, but I see that old walker and grease up every time.
I prefer the grease on top so that the grease is smeared down the bore before the ball passes through and to coat the bore to keep the fouling from sticking directly to the bore. I can shoot a several dozen to a hundred shots with out the bore and armature gumming up.
I prefer the grease on top so that the grease is smeared down the bore before the ball passes through and to coat the bore to keep the fouling from sticking directly to the bore. I can shoot a several dozen to a hundred shots with out the bore and armature gumming up.
Some thoughts...for all the Crisco users (I was among them). It seems that after the first shot or two all the Crisco is out of the remaining 4 cylinders so....a lot of us were probably shooting C & B's with no wad and apparently no or little lube, and yet no chain firing.
I think if the ring of lead is shaved off then the biggest concern is the recoil from one shot loosening the caps on the nipples such that on the next shot the exposed nipple gets hot gases into the chamber to explode the round/chain fire.
Nevertheless I now use wads. In some instances the wads also improve accuracy.
I think if the ring of lead is shaved off then the biggest concern is the recoil from one shot loosening the caps on the nipples such that on the next shot the exposed nipple gets hot gases into the chamber to explode the round/chain fire.
Nevertheless I now use wads. In some instances the wads also improve accuracy.
If you look at the pistols used by the Missouri raiders / Kansas Jayhawkers they would use melted candle wax to seal the cylinders and also to seal the caps onto the nipples. This kept chain fires down to a minimum and also helped to keep moisture from getting to the powder.
what I do is chamfer my cylinders so that I don't shave a ring of lead off the ball, I want the ball to fit as tight as possible for a complete seal.
also I use a lubed wad but never grease the ends of the cylinder and am very careful about leaving powder flakes on top of the cylinder (face) do not leave a fuze to the powder!
just be careful when loading.. :hmm:
also I use a lubed wad but never grease the ends of the cylinder and am very careful about leaving powder flakes on top of the cylinder (face) do not leave a fuze to the powder!
just be careful when loading.. :hmm:
didn't help that club member did it? I have little paitience for people that are closed minded to new ideas.
why use grease that gets blowed out and makes the end of the cylinder sticky and allows loose powder to grab on! read my post and be open minded to something new..Post#1084699 :grin:
why use grease that gets blowed out and makes the end of the cylinder sticky and allows loose powder to grab on! read my post and be open minded to something new..Post#1084699 :grin:
zimmerstutzen
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I seriously doubt you can shoot as many successive shots without having things bind up as a person that shoots with grease over the bullets/balls. A coating of grease beats dry fouling caking up the works.
Whether you swage the lead into the chambers or shave some lead and grease are various schools of thought in the issue. As are wads under the bullets, filler, etc. I use a commercial grease preparation. Some use Crisco, especially in cold weather. When I was a kid some used old fashioned fibered water pump grease. I don't care if they use ear wax. It is sadly apparent that some precautions do not seal either the fronts or the backs of the cylinder chambers to prevent chain firing. There is a logical reason to grease over top the balls. Perhaps a belt AND suspenders mentality. If it cuts down on chain fires, who cares. I know a guy that uses a wad under the ball and grease of top. Sort of a triple precaution. He is not wrong, you are not necessarily wrong. Whatever does the job to the utmost practical safety is good.
As for dirty grease getting all over, I am shooting black powder, I have to clean the gun anyway. If grease keeps the fouling soft on the parts, it has done it's job.
Whether you swage the lead into the chambers or shave some lead and grease are various schools of thought in the issue. As are wads under the bullets, filler, etc. I use a commercial grease preparation. Some use Crisco, especially in cold weather. When I was a kid some used old fashioned fibered water pump grease. I don't care if they use ear wax. It is sadly apparent that some precautions do not seal either the fronts or the backs of the cylinder chambers to prevent chain firing. There is a logical reason to grease over top the balls. Perhaps a belt AND suspenders mentality. If it cuts down on chain fires, who cares. I know a guy that uses a wad under the ball and grease of top. Sort of a triple precaution. He is not wrong, you are not necessarily wrong. Whatever does the job to the utmost practical safety is good.
As for dirty grease getting all over, I am shooting black powder, I have to clean the gun anyway. If grease keeps the fouling soft on the parts, it has done it's job.
I'm computer challenged :grin: How do you look up Post#1084699- thanks?
Some thoughts on all this.
1. I don't have any problem with greasing the ends of the cylinder but once I got using geased wads my accuracy actually improved and the wads put the ball closer to the end of the cylinder with a smaller powder charge- in any event I like greased wads. On the clean up I don't see much difference either way. After I switched to wads I found out that in many instances Crisco gets burnt up after a shot or two- leaving the ends of the remaining 4 chambers without much protection. I never checked this- At the range I loaded a cylinder and immediately fired all the shots without looking at what kind of a job the Crisco was doing. In any event if you grease the end of the cylnder IMHO you need a better lube than Crisco.
2. If you are going to carry a gun in hot weather- you need a lube that won't melt on a hot day.
3. Chain Firing: we ran a poll about a year or so ago. In every case but one it was found the chain firing occurred at the start of the day's shooting. Why? The only thing we could figure was that if you snap a cap on the nipples before loading up you burn off the grease. If this is not done then the grease may allow the nipples to get knocked loose from recoil and cause the chain firing when the next round is shot.
In any event- it has been a while since we did our poll and maybe we ought to do it again. If I recall the majority of chain firings only involved one other chamber and normally the one next to that lined up with the barrel.
Some thoughts on all this.
1. I don't have any problem with greasing the ends of the cylinder but once I got using geased wads my accuracy actually improved and the wads put the ball closer to the end of the cylinder with a smaller powder charge- in any event I like greased wads. On the clean up I don't see much difference either way. After I switched to wads I found out that in many instances Crisco gets burnt up after a shot or two- leaving the ends of the remaining 4 chambers without much protection. I never checked this- At the range I loaded a cylinder and immediately fired all the shots without looking at what kind of a job the Crisco was doing. In any event if you grease the end of the cylnder IMHO you need a better lube than Crisco.
2. If you are going to carry a gun in hot weather- you need a lube that won't melt on a hot day.
3. Chain Firing: we ran a poll about a year or so ago. In every case but one it was found the chain firing occurred at the start of the day's shooting. Why? The only thing we could figure was that if you snap a cap on the nipples before loading up you burn off the grease. If this is not done then the grease may allow the nipples to get knocked loose from recoil and cause the chain firing when the next round is shot.
In any event- it has been a while since we did our poll and maybe we ought to do it again. If I recall the majority of chain firings only involved one other chamber and normally the one next to that lined up with the barrel.
zimmerstutzen
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Crockett, Whether you shoot a wad underneath or grease on top, the ball should still be at the end of the chamber. I use a commercial preparation called pistol patch from Blue and Gray products. It is about the same consistency as fresh caulking.
It doesn't melt and holds fast during firing the other chambers.
It doesn't melt and holds fast during firing the other chambers.
i had 1 chain fire. that was on a walker colt repo. it was loaded and greased. but i fired a shot and the next cap fell off. so i fired the next one in line then the next cap fell off.so when i touched off the next chamber the 2 uncapped chembers went off also.
Blizzard of '93
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this is a shot of a nephew's '51 repica being fired just after dusk, not a chainfire but it's easy to see that some flying fire can easily find a way into the adjacent chamber(s)
knock on wood I've never had a chainfire.
Thanks- I don't remember you on the last poll and that's new information and proof (to me at least) that a chain fire can occur at the nipples. Do you remember the position of the other two chambers from the chamber in line with the barrel? (the issue being how far the flame and flash can extend).
If anyone else has had a chain fire- let us know.
And- the caps that fell off- do you remember if you first snapped a cap on an empty chamber before loading up? Did the caps need to be squeezed on the nipples?
Just another thought- I never thought about it before but back when I used Crisco my hands would get pretty greasy even when I wiped them on a rag. I wonder if those greasy hands can inadvertently get grease on a nipple while trying to put on a cap? That could possibly cause a cap to pop off. I suppose that is a good reason to use a capper and forget the grease and use wads.
Finally, I always thought you were supposed to snap a cap on an empty chamber at the beginning of a shooting session to insure a clear pathway into the chamber. Now I'm wondering about that. A percussion cap is pretty powerful. I've made combustible cartridges with tin foil cases (candy wrappers) and the force of the percussion cap has always been strong enough to burst through the foil and explode the round. I wonder if the purpose of snapping the caps and burning off the oil/grease pertained more to insuring the next caps were seated on a dry nipple with some fouling on it- to help insure it didn't fall off.
If anyone else has had a chain fire- let us know.
And- the caps that fell off- do you remember if you first snapped a cap on an empty chamber before loading up? Did the caps need to be squeezed on the nipples?
Just another thought- I never thought about it before but back when I used Crisco my hands would get pretty greasy even when I wiped them on a rag. I wonder if those greasy hands can inadvertently get grease on a nipple while trying to put on a cap? That could possibly cause a cap to pop off. I suppose that is a good reason to use a capper and forget the grease and use wads.
Finally, I always thought you were supposed to snap a cap on an empty chamber at the beginning of a shooting session to insure a clear pathway into the chamber. Now I'm wondering about that. A percussion cap is pretty powerful. I've made combustible cartridges with tin foil cases (candy wrappers) and the force of the percussion cap has always been strong enough to burst through the foil and explode the round. I wonder if the purpose of snapping the caps and burning off the oil/grease pertained more to insuring the next caps were seated on a dry nipple with some fouling on it- to help insure it didn't fall off.
Mike Brooks
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Chain fires come from the back of the cylinder due to ill fitting caps.Rifleman1776 said:
Grease at the front of the cylinder is for lubrication of the ball and has nothing to do with preventing chain fires.
I generally agree with that although at least in theory any place there is an opening could bring on a chain firing. The time we did the poll one fellow used balls that didn't swage or shave lead- they were undersized and the recoil must have knocked them forward and exploded the powder.
The combustible cartridges- there were a few proto-types with a cork wad but generally no wad. I'm not sure how tight they fit in the bores. No lube on the outside to the best of my knowledge. I can't recall any Civil War accounts of chain firing but if the lube at the end of the chambers was mandatory then you would think a lot of chain firings occurred in the Civil War AND- that may be the case- I don't know.
In any event we all value our own hide so this subject is of interest. So far the evidence seems to indicate that if you snap a cap on the nipples to burn off any oil or grease, use properly fitting caps and projectiles- that you are safe. Personally I also feel safer with lubed wads although if I want maximum powder I forget the wads and use the Crisco. Like I said I need a better lube formula for carrying in hot weather (hunting).
The combustible cartridges- there were a few proto-types with a cork wad but generally no wad. I'm not sure how tight they fit in the bores. No lube on the outside to the best of my knowledge. I can't recall any Civil War accounts of chain firing but if the lube at the end of the chambers was mandatory then you would think a lot of chain firings occurred in the Civil War AND- that may be the case- I don't know.
In any event we all value our own hide so this subject is of interest. So far the evidence seems to indicate that if you snap a cap on the nipples to burn off any oil or grease, use properly fitting caps and projectiles- that you are safe. Personally I also feel safer with lubed wads although if I want maximum powder I forget the wads and use the Crisco. Like I said I need a better lube formula for carrying in hot weather (hunting).
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