cast vs. swaged

[russecv58]

hi guys, just a quick question for those who cast their own. i was wondering what kind of consistency are you getting with hand cast? the reason im asking is because, out of curiosity, i mic'd some of my Hornady Swaged RB's (.535). my thinking was that swaged balls would be fairly uniform in diameter, boy was in for a supprise. all that i measured were way out of round. i have one egg..er.. ball that, as i spun it in the caliper, its measurement varied from .529" to .541" :shocked2: . is this normal and i'm just expecting too much, or does it sound like i have a defective batch? i have a sneaking suspicion it may be the cause of more than one flyer at the range. what do you guys think? :idunno:

 

[paulvallandigham]

I doubt most people actually measure every swaged ball they shoot, unless they are Bench Rest Target shooters- who weight them as well as measure them! :shocked2: :v I too was shocked to find out how much swaged balls can different in both Weight and Dimensions. :nono: :idunno: :surrender:

Personally, I think a tolerance of +/- .006" is way too much. These balls do upset some when they are fired, but I doubt that it is that much. I have not attempted to recovered enough fired balls to have any real data on this, but those I have recovered are not that out of round.

Either put these in a Case Vibrator, or Tumbler with similar "round" balls, to knock around against each other for an hour, to see if that doesn't make them more "ROUND". OR, throw them into a casting pot. OR, simply set the worst ones aside, to be used for informal plinking sessions, where the targets are big, and CLOSE, and shooting off-hand, you are not expecting that much in the way of accuracy, nor do you need it. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

How much they will affect the accuracy of a given gun depends on the caliber, and the percentage of the diameter of the ball for that caliber of gun these odd-shaped balls are "out-of-round". A .45 caliber round ball that is out-of-round by .006" +/- will most likely be much less accurate, than a .62 caliber RB with that same dimension problem.

 

[grousehunter]

obviously these big companies have no quality control, and you can find these problems in just about any or all ammo store bought. the balls you make at home will be far superior to the hornady balls you have, ussually i weigh out 3 sets of balls 1 grain each in difference and throw the rest back in the pot. the store boughts i have weighed can be out by 10 grains that will cause a problem and the out of round will compound it. don't they look good in there little red box though

 

[jamesthomas]

Very interesting! as it so happens I have a box of Hornady .495's, so I got out my calipers and measured about 30 of them and they measured pretty good, from around .494 to .500 so thats ok I guess. 6 Thousands should'nt make that much difference IMO, at least out to a 100 yards which most of us have as our max range to shoot, either target or hunting. I also weighed them and they all were within 2 grns, 182 to less than 184 grns. How many did you check? I'm thinking you got a bad batch. It might be that the larger the ball the more difference there is. Somebody with some .58 or .62 swaged balls might check thiers and tell us how they measure up.

 

[jethro224]

I have never miced mine but I do weigh them. Like Gauge, I sort them into batches by grain weight.
224-225=plinkers
225-226=shooters
226-227=more-better-shooters (probly all in my head)

 

[David W.]

Cast balls are usually more "round" than swaged balls. But, one mould will be "more round" than another, even from the same manufacturer. I have read the steel moulds are usually more consistant than the one's that are machined from aluminum.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I had a very long reply typed then deleted. I'll toss out this thought. We don't really shoot a roundball. We may load a sorta-roundball. Now, even if a ball is not a perfect globe when we squoosh it into the barrel we are (probably) forming it into a (sorta) cylinder shape so starting out not perfectly round isn't all that important....is it? Just fodder for thought. I believe the answer it on the target with lots of testing from the bench.

 

[hanshi]

Never having bought ball ammo for my MLs, I can't comment on their quality. I can vouch for my hand cast ball, however. I have at least 5 rb moulds. I can't imagine buying anything better than I can cast; and I cast absolutely everything I shoot. Doesn't matter, iron, aluminum or brass, they all cast well for me. I've probably cast tens of thousands of ball not to mention the many thousands of handgun bullets from a previous time.

 

[hanshi]

I should add that the 5 moulds are BRANDS, not individual moulds. I must have a couple dozen (at least) moulds.

 

[leslie]

I cast my own using lee moulds and have had good results.From time to time I have picked up swedged balls from a blanket and found they were not as uniform in diameter as the cast by the way they go down the barrel.I do not shoot in contests involving using measurements in millimeters or shooting off a bench so accuracy comparisons are unknown.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I cast and then "roll" my balls, leaving me a ball that is within .001 of round and within 1&1/2 grain of weight. For short ranges fifty yards or less, I don't think this is necesssary but for longer ranges I believe it helps or I would not bother! :idunno: :idunno:

 

[JeffinNZ]

I cast all my own .395's for my .40cal RB rifles. Consistency is very good. Keep the alloy at a consistent temperature and pour each ball the same. Smooth rhythm is the search to casting. My variance on a 94gr would be + or - 0.5gr as a rule.

 

[paulab]

I dryballed my .50 last year. I used a CO2 discharger to squirt the ball out into a pile of dirty clothes in the clothes basket. If any of you think that a round ball isn't deformed when loading you had better think again. The tighter the fit of the ball/patch in the bore, the more it will be deformed at loading. Try it for yourself and see. You'll be a lot less picky about how "round" your roundball is. cheers Paul

 

[ohio ramrod]

Paul you are right that a "Hammered fit" lead ball really deforms when loaded with a flat ended ramrod/range rod. Which is why many of us use looser fitting patch/ball combinations and have our rod ends machined to the proper radius . :idunno:

 

[Zonie]

Even with a radius on the tip of a loading button the round ball will be deformed a bit.

The tight fit of the ball and patch with the bore will embed some of the patching material into the ball and the ball will be slightly squeezed down in the process.

 

[russecv58]

wow, thanks for all the replies guys.
after reading all your replies, i think its time for me to make a visit to Cabela's for some casting equipment. i never really paid much attention to the quality of RB's before, i always just bought'em & shot'em. even though i dont shoot in matches (would love to try one someday)i still try to get out & shoot atleast once a week. i figure it cant hurt to try and wring every last bit of accuracy out of my rifles. :wink:

 

[gordy]

Over the years there have been several discussions on cast vs. swagged balls. I have used both and checked for out of round and weight difference. I have found that Rbs cast with some care will ruun closer to round than boughten swagged RBs. Also , the lead used to cast has to be consistant. The majority of the shooting is not precision target work , so I find no need to "tweak" all the varibles to get precise accy.
I would also agree that no matter how well the rod end fits the ball curveture , the ball will be distorted to some degree. As waas said , at the normal ranges iron sighted traditional style MLs. are used. The slight varibles in weight and out of roundness, it would be hard to measure the differene in point of impact. :idunno: :thumbsup:

 

[Greenjoytj]

After reading you post I measured the diameter of my box of Hornady swaged .535" balls with a micrometer.

I was surprised to see the same kind of out of round by a few thou. result you saw.

I rolled the balls down a straight edge inclined plane propped up on a shallow slope.

Some of the balls couldn't make it to the end of my inclined plane test.

Some of the ball made the trip but looked real weird during their roll down the straight edge.

I culled out all balls that couldn't roll straight and the one that made the trip but look odd doing it.

I had previously weight them all and culled out the balls that were two tens of a gain lighter and heavier than the average.

Hornady swaged .535" balls averaged 229.3 grains bell curve center.

Hornady swaged .530" balls averaged 224.4 grains bell curve center.

Now the swaged ball have been tested for their roundness too.

My hand cast balls LEE .535" mould, averaged 231.5 grains bell curve center.

Side Note:

Both my hand cast and Hornady factory swaged ball were weighed on a RCBS digital powder scale and numbered with a marker pen.

The Hornady .535" swaged balls ranged in weight from 228.1 to 231.2 grains thats a 3.1 grain spread.

I charted all the balls on a quad ruled graph paper, each tenth of a grain of ball weight has its own column, and each ball # in its own square on a row.

Naturally the chart showed a nice bell curve with most of the balls in 229.1 to 229.5 range so I picked 229.3 grains as my average.

The lighter balls will go to the melting pot.

Some of the heavier balls that were 229.6 to .8 grains I filed a small flat spot on the ball and re-weigh them until they weighed the average.
They look like cast balls with the sprue flat spot now.

I was able to recover about 20 balls by filing them down to weight.

I will not do that again as the filing was why too tedious and time consuming, I could have hand cast quit a bunch of balls in that same amount of time.

 

[necchi]

Just rolling factory made ball across the kitchen table or counter can be a real eye opener. :shocked2:

I could have hand cast quit a bunch of balls in that same amount of time.

All those inconsistancies is exactly why I started casting. Sure there was an expense to set up and a short learning curve. But I can cast and cull to my own standards and I'm no longer dependant on a supply chain.
It depends on how much you shoot but, at $12+ per box it doesn't take too many years to recover start up costs

 

[buford87]

I didn't mind too much paying almost $15 per hundred for swagged balls for my .50but when I got my .32 and the balls cost the same for a box half the size It was time for a change. I cast .311 balls now and as soon as I determine if my CVA mountain rifle likes .490 or .495 best I will get a mold for that...................watch yer top knot.................