BP Explosion from Impact?

[Zonie]

I am posting this because we have so many folks who are new to Black Powder shooting and I am sure many of them have wondered about the safety of loading it in their guns.

As some of you know, I've been a NMLRA member for years and keep the old Muzzle Blasts magazines for my Morning Read.

The April 2004 issue has an article by the Bevel Brothers about Black Powder exploding because of being crushed by someone ramming his ball down the barrel.

The brothers ran a number of experiments just to see how much pressure it would take to set it off.

Their answer? It's impossible to get Black Powder to explode by applying pressure. (Note, I did not say with sparks added like you could get by hitting steel with steel).

Among the experiments they did was to place a tablespoon of powder on an old anvil. This they hit repeatedly with a 2 1/2 pound brass hammer. The results was a bunch of crushed powder, no explosion or even a pop!

They then figured maybe swinging a 2 1/2 pound hammer as hard as they could wasn't enough so they sit a can of 3Fg powder out on a stump and fired a .30-06 bullet thru it. This time they ended up with 3Fg powder all over the place but no explosion.

They go on to mention that thousands of rounds of Black Powder Cartridge Rifles cartridges are loaded each year with many of the loads compressing the powder more than .300. Many of these loads are severe enough that the cartridge cases bulge during the bullet seating process so they have to be resized to fit in the guns chamber. With all of this extreme smashing of the powder some might expect something dreadful to occure but not one explosion has happened due to this procedure.

Another article has prooven many times using many different scientific set ups that Black Powder will not explode due to static electricity.
It is thought that the high carbon content in the powder channels the electric arc around the outside of the grains to their grounding point so there is virtually no resistance thus there is no heating of the powder.

Any kind of spark due to metal shavings, smoking, open fire or similar sources of heat will ignite Black Powder so by all means, keep these away from it.

 

[doverdog]

I have often wondered about this, mainly I guess because of the old rolls of caps for my childhood cap gun. We used to put a whole roll of them on a hard surface and hammer them with the end of a ball bat. We were rewarded with a rather impressive noise. The stuff in caps must not be black powder.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Its not. I believe it is called flashpowder and has some magnesium in it, that will ignite from friction.

 

[taylorh]

Is it possible to create a sprark from ramming the powder with a steel tipped ram rod, like those used by TC?
Taylor in Texas

 

[musketman]

They then figured maybe swinging a 2 1/2 pound hammer as hard as they could wasn't enough so they sit a can of 3Fg powder out on a stump and fired a .30-06 bullet thru it. This time they ended up with 3Fg powder all over the place but no explosion.

Odd, because I have seen just the oppisite happen, the difference was that the bullet used was a hollowpoint fired from a .223 Remington case...

I'm guessing the hollowpoint caused a spark when it blasted through the can, but it did explode when shot...

 

[Rebel]

If you are using a patched rd ball and you have a good tight fitting combo i don't see how a spark could get past it to the powder even if you could create a spark in the barrel with the rod.

 

[Zonie]

The only time I can think of that would create a "spark" with steel against steel would be if one piece of steel was very hard and the other very soft.
This wouldn't exactly create a "spark" but any metal shaved off of the soft piece will be hot (unless a coolent is present). It only takes something a little over 480 degrees F to ignite real Black Powder.
I do agree that with the powder below the patched ball it would be nearly impossible for any spark to get to the powder.

Musketman: The only reason I can think of for the .223 causing an explosion is if the target was sitting on a rock and the bullet was an armor pearcing bullet. If the AP bullet hit the rock it could create sparks, and then blast thru the container spreading powder where the sparks could ignite it? Just a thought.
While having thoughts, I have seen the hero shoot the powder keg right when the bad guy walked by and it blew up every time! :grin:

One of these days I'll have to use some of my Elephant Powder to make a powder trail just like the movies to see if it actually goes fzz..sppitt..fzz..fzzzzzzzz..spit..spit..BOOM!
Of course the first challenge will be to get the stuff just to ignite. :grin:

 

[Rebel]

Yea, if you plan to try to ignite Elephant, you better take a propane torch along. :grin:

 

[WRussell]

I've seen posts about the heat from compressing the air column in a long barrel (dieseling) getting hot enough to get black powder going.

Dunno if there's ever been a documented incident, but food for thought. :hmm:

 

[Wigamajig]

I've seen posts about the heat from compressing the air column in a long barrel (dieseling) getting hot enough to get black powder going.

Dunno if there's ever been a documented incident, but food for thought. :hmm:

I am new to this, so forgive my ignorance. But wouldn't the air escape out the nipple or flash channel? I would think you would have to ram that ball down pretty darn fast to create that much heat.

 

[musketman]

I am new to this, so forgive my ignorance. But wouldn't the air escape out the nipple or flash channel? I would think you would have to ram that ball down pretty darn fast to create that much heat.

It depends on the size of the exit hole, air will heat up as it is being forced through a smaller opening...

A good example would be using a needle valve to pump up a basketball, the needle valve feels warm to the touch when you are done because the air compressed and heated up the stem while the ball was being inflated...

 

I've seen posts about the heat from compressing the air column in a long barrel (dieseling) getting hot enough to get black powder going.

Dunno if there's ever been a documented incident, but food for thought. :hmm:

Ther is a fire starter that uses that method of ignition I think in New Guinea.It is a howllowed out piece of dowel,branch whatever ,that has tinder in the bottom and another dowel that is forced inside the larger dowel.The friction of the air ignites the tinder.Its not metal and powder but could it be the same principal :hmm:

 

[buckknife]

Has anyone ever heard of a can of black exploding after being droped from a heigth of 6 feet or more?
I was talking muzzleloaders with a person i came to know at work who used to shoot roundballs,he is now into harleys.He said he had a partcially full can of powder fall off the top of his cabinet in his garage one day and it exploded :shocked2:
Scared the manure out of him was his words.I was very skeptical and still am.I told him of the test done with eletricity and with pressure aplyed to powder from what i have heard.
He said it happened and was glad it wasnt a full can.I thought that maybe the can had ruptured on something on inpact and caused a spark.
He also says the older the can of powder the bigger the boom.Suposedlly he and another guy who decided they were done with muzzleloaders years later,having too much fun riding their hogs,went to a local cliff and chucked some cans off the cliff down to the rocks below.He said everyone of them exploded and that a couple of real old cans made the biggest boom.
I am very skeptical to say the least but this guy gets a little mad when i question him about it.He says if ya dont belive me go throw a can off that cliff.
I aint doing it,my powder cost to much to waste that way and i have a feeling id just have a smashed can with loose powder lying around,but?
Any volunters :haha:

 

[Deadeye]

I believe the Bevel Bros. did some experments on the pressure generated heat also and was unable to
set off any powder. I have beat the stuff to death on an anvil with a steel hammer and never been able to set it off, also have tried to do it with static electricity and never succeeded.
Someone in another post talked of using a titanium
frizzen (wrong metal) it makes big beautiful white sparks but they won't ignite BP. I put a pile of powder under a grinder and bombarded it with titanium sparks from about an inch away, wouldn't ignite. Magnesium will but not titanium.

 

[Deadeye]

Zonie, Many yrs. ago there was an explosion of their powder magazine at Friendship. I think someone was killed. I may be wrong but as I recall it was thought to have been caused by a stray bullet. Do you recall that incident?
Another case in Santa Rosa, Ca. A gun shop with a shooting range in the basement and some black powder, stored upstairs in the store, claimed a bullet ricocheted and somehow hit the black powder and burned the store down. Don't remember the yr.

 

[Chiefs50]

The only complaint I have about Elephant is that it is so dirty. Other than that, I have found it to be very reliable.

 

[Rebel]

I almost gave up on flinters because of Pachyderm poop powder. Stuff was almost impossible to get to ignite. And VERY dirty too.

 

[olgriz]

I put some of my nitroglyceren heart pills on the anvil and beat the manure out of them with a hammer. They didn't go off either. I remember one time I was filling my horn over the kitchen sink, and some 3F spilled into the sink. My X had a fit, but being above average intellegence I told her that it takes over 400 degrees to set the stuff off, and boiling water is only 240, so there was no danger. She bought it. By the way, I was right, it didn't go off. I'm not a rich man, but I'd be willing to bet a bundle with anyone that wants to throw a can of black powder off a cliff, or drop it out of an airplane, that it aint going to go off. It takes a spark, and lead don't make sparks. In fact a burning cigerette doesn't work all that well, and in the old days when the sailors were shooting their cannons the last command before fire was, "gunners, blow your matches." That salt peter impregnated rope isn't hot enough to reliablably set off the priming charge. Blowing the match made it hot enough to fire. If, however, your barrel is cruddy, and there is a latent spark down there that isn't hot enough to set off the powder when you drop it down the barrel, you can bet it will go off when the wind going out the nipple or vent when the ball is being rammed will heat that spark up. Just in case that spark doesn't need fanning, one should never load directly from the horn. Load from a measure, then if it goes off, your eyes will be wide and only your fingers will be burned. And don't put your body over the muzzle when you are ramming your load. And that's why cannons are swabbed between every shot, and then the gunner holds his thumnb over the vent when the charged is being rammed, to keep any spark that might have got by the water from fanning into enough heat to set off the charge.

 

[Zonie]

I agree with cowhand. I'll be the first in line with cash in hand to bet the Harley rider the can of powder will not explode. :grin:

As for the fire piston, yes, it will ignite tinder and it does so with compressed air.
When air compresses it gets hot.
Rapidly compressing air to 75 pounds per square inch will raise the temperature to about 600 degrees F, which is well above the ignition point of black powder. (notice I said "rapidly").

I read the Bevel Brothers column and was disapointed to see they were using a very short barrel to run their experiment. I think the results would have been different had they used a longer barrel.

If a longer barrel coupled with very rapid ramming could ignite black powder, then why don't we hear of it happenimg more often.
First, IMO, I suspect some of the rare occurances of a muzzleloader firing during loading, was in fact directly tied to this compression heating. I believe, after the event, it was blamed on a spark in the barrel or some similar thought.

Second, it is very rare because if the ramming is done with a moderate speed, most of the compressed air will escape thru the nipple/touch hole. Also, the air gives off it's increased heat very rapidly to the cool wall of the bore.

 

[jtmattison]

I've smacked some with a hammer before to see if it would pop...didn't work.

I even put a small pile of it on my driveway and took a lit stick match to it. I had to work the flame into it just right to get it to light. I thought just touching a match to it would set it off but it didn't.

Huntin Dawg