Maestro
Moderator
Check your game laws... in the PA muzzleloader seasons the law is: single projectile, .44 cal. or larger for deer.
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Not much help for PA, but NY says "NO" unless it's a single shot m/l pistol of .44 cal or larger.
PA Rules & Regulations (Man, you're are complicated!)
Maestro
Moderator
:shake:
Amazing, isn't it!? Thanks for posting that.You're probably right about that, too. :nono:
Makes you wonder sometimes about the things that some idiot must have done for them to have come up with some of the regulations. :shake: A recent mag (F&S or Amer. Hunter) just had an article on crazy game laws... it was either Ohio or Tenn. (doesn't matter which to make the point) where it's illegal to kill WHALES!
Maestro,
I have never seen anything in print but I will give you my first hand experience. Perhaps 12 years ago, I was hunting with my brother on public land (Pennsylvania Gas & Water Co.) in the regular rifle season. It was a rather cold, wet day and by lunch time, we were both ready to warm up a little. So, we decided to have lunch in my truck and warm up before heading back out for the afternoon. We unloaded our rifles and put them in the back of the truck. Just finishing our sandwiches, we saw a PGC truck crawling down the logging road we were parked near. One of the WCO's got out and came over to us and checked our guns and licenses. I had not noticed previously, but my brother wore a crossdraw holster with a .357 S&W buckled in it. WCO sees it though and says, "is that loaded?" and my bro says "it sure is". WCO says "that's a game code violation" but my bro says "no it's not - I have a protection permit and unless this is a state park or an airport, I got a right to carry. Go check the rules". WCO is mad now and growls "stay here" and goes back to his truck and talks to his partner. Then they get on the radio for awhile. The whole time, I'm thinking we're gonna get a big fine 'cause my bro is a BS'er from birth. WCO comes back out of the truck, leans in my passenger window and says to my bro "mess up (he used another word here) one time and I'll write you up big time".
I took that to mean that a protection permit is good anywhere unless the federal, state or issuing government says otherwise. I have carried a little extra help with me most of the time, ever since. I have run into bears that people have fed until they've become dangerous and I've watched a pack of coyotes run through the woods at dawn 25 feet away with little more than a 12 gauge. I've run into rough folks who might think nothing of hitting you over the head for your rifle or what might be in your wallet. I've come back to my treestand only to find a stranger trying to get it unlocked from the tree. I don't want to run into any of those situations alone with a flinter or even a shot gun. I want to walk out of the woods each time I go in.
I carry one after I get my deer when I'm driving for other folks, too. Don't know if I'm breaking any laws but I look at it this way - I've got a right to defend myself and feel safe that supercedes the PGC's opinion that I might be breaking game laws. That's my experience. Have we got any PA WCO's in the audience?
Finnwolf
I have never seen anything in print but I will give you my first hand experience. Perhaps 12 years ago, I was hunting with my brother on public land (Pennsylvania Gas & Water Co.) in the regular rifle season. It was a rather cold, wet day and by lunch time, we were both ready to warm up a little. So, we decided to have lunch in my truck and warm up before heading back out for the afternoon. We unloaded our rifles and put them in the back of the truck. Just finishing our sandwiches, we saw a PGC truck crawling down the logging road we were parked near. One of the WCO's got out and came over to us and checked our guns and licenses. I had not noticed previously, but my brother wore a crossdraw holster with a .357 S&W buckled in it. WCO sees it though and says, "is that loaded?" and my bro says "it sure is". WCO says "that's a game code violation" but my bro says "no it's not - I have a protection permit and unless this is a state park or an airport, I got a right to carry. Go check the rules". WCO is mad now and growls "stay here" and goes back to his truck and talks to his partner. Then they get on the radio for awhile. The whole time, I'm thinking we're gonna get a big fine 'cause my bro is a BS'er from birth. WCO comes back out of the truck, leans in my passenger window and says to my bro "mess up (he used another word here) one time and I'll write you up big time".
I took that to mean that a protection permit is good anywhere unless the federal, state or issuing government says otherwise. I have carried a little extra help with me most of the time, ever since. I have run into bears that people have fed until they've become dangerous and I've watched a pack of coyotes run through the woods at dawn 25 feet away with little more than a 12 gauge. I've run into rough folks who might think nothing of hitting you over the head for your rifle or what might be in your wallet. I've come back to my treestand only to find a stranger trying to get it unlocked from the tree. I don't want to run into any of those situations alone with a flinter or even a shot gun. I want to walk out of the woods each time I go in.
I carry one after I get my deer when I'm driving for other folks, too. Don't know if I'm breaking any laws but I look at it this way - I've got a right to defend myself and feel safe that supercedes the PGC's opinion that I might be breaking game laws. That's my experience. Have we got any PA WCO's in the audience?
Finnwolf
Maestro
Moderator
Finnwolf,
You said that the incident was in the the regular rifle season - but they've put those specific clauses in about archery & muzzleloading seasons (and spotlighting game animals!) because, I believe, like Stumpkiller said, "it would likely be inferred that you were hunting with it and the intent is there." ...and that's :bull:... you're responsible enough to carry a concealed weapon any other time - but not when you're ALONE IN THE WOODS! :shake: "I'll carry a bow or a flintlock around just to fool 'em - I really want to shoot a deer with my .45 1911."
You said that the incident was in the the regular rifle season - but they've put those specific clauses in about archery & muzzleloading seasons (and spotlighting game animals!) because, I believe, like Stumpkiller said, "it would likely be inferred that you were hunting with it and the intent is there." ...and that's :bull:... you're responsible enough to carry a concealed weapon any other time - but not when you're ALONE IN THE WOODS! :shake: "I'll carry a bow or a flintlock around just to fool 'em - I really want to shoot a deer with my .45 1911."
You certainly do (and I wholeheartedly agree), but the fact remains, IF you/we are breaking a game law, you/we may be required to pay whatever penalty.
Gobbler Knob? Can you elaborate on this?
Maestro,
I'm sticking to my guns here - pardon the pun! Since when can any law enforcement agency, let alone one as far down on the food chain as the PGC - "infer" that I am breaking a law. Don't they have to proove that I did or at least proove beyond a reasonable doubt that I intend to? I routinely walk into a local convenience store at night, while walking my springer, with a concealed hand gun. Could a local policeman "infer" that I intend to rob the place and arrest me with any chance of a conviction? I sure hope not - it would be time to move to another state 'cause I must be in Massachussetts!
Finn
I'm sticking to my guns here - pardon the pun! Since when can any law enforcement agency, let alone one as far down on the food chain as the PGC - "infer" that I am breaking a law. Don't they have to proove that I did or at least proove beyond a reasonable doubt that I intend to? I routinely walk into a local convenience store at night, while walking my springer, with a concealed hand gun. Could a local policeman "infer" that I intend to rob the place and arrest me with any chance of a conviction? I sure hope not - it would be time to move to another state 'cause I must be in Massachussetts!
Finn
Maestro
Moderator
Good point! but...
BTW, good choice of dog! I miss my Springer, Sadie - she was a good bird dog and friend.
...no, but if it were against the law for you to carry there, he could, couldn't he? I guess the "inference" thing may be invalid, but wouldn't it be like carrying concealed in a post office, state park, etc.?
BTW, good choice of dog! I miss my Springer, Sadie - she was a good bird dog and friend.
Maestro,
Don't go off half cocked there! Sorry...
In order for that police officer or WCO to arrest me, it would have to be cited in the PA concealed carry law that it is illegal to carry in convenience stores or in the woods. Take a look at this website - not written by lawyers but I'll bet these folks are in the know.
http://www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/2502
My springer, Bullet (Bully for short) is gone now too, about a year and a half. All I have is some great bird hunting memories and all the time we spent together. His mother's name was Sadie.
Finn
Don't go off half cocked there! Sorry...
In order for that police officer or WCO to arrest me, it would have to be cited in the PA concealed carry law that it is illegal to carry in convenience stores or in the woods. Take a look at this website - not written by lawyers but I'll bet these folks are in the know.
http://www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/2502
My springer, Bullet (Bully for short) is gone now too, about a year and a half. All I have is some great bird hunting memories and all the time we spent together. His mother's name was Sadie.
Finn
Maestro
Moderator
Finn, Don't misunderstand me - I'm not arguing with you - I hope you're right! I would like to know for sure if I can carry while bowhunting, etc...
Right... but in order for a PGC WCO to arrest you, it would have to be cited in the game law that it is illegal to carry while hunting during archery or muzzleloader seasons. And it appears to be... that's what I'm concerned about. As dumb :youcrazy: as it seems, it would sure seem to me that, according to the game laws, if I was spotlighting deer while carrying (even a .22 auto mouse gun), I'd be in violation.
Excellent site - everyone ought to bookmark it!
Maestro,
I don't think I misunderstand you - I don't take your comments as arguing but I think you may not be hearing what I am saying. The law that governs concealed weapons IS the PA Concealed Carry Law NOT the PGC code. I simply do not believe that game law can over ride the carry law. The concealed carry law tells me where I may not carry and makes it legal for me to carry except where stated in the concealed carry law that I may not carry.
IMHO, the PGC may set their policy and revoke my license, the land owner may set his policy and ask me to leave his property but I do not believe I can be arrested when the concealed carry law gives me the right to carry everywhere except schools, courthouses, state parks, airports, etc. The fact that the WCO backed off years ago tells me that the carry law trumps the PGC code. He was so mad he wanted to do something but his older partner told him to stand down.
Now I disagree with your spotlighting example. Why? To me, if you are in your truck spotlighting, you are pretty safe. If you need protection, it sure won't be a .22 rifle. People who are serious about personal protection own at least one comfortably carryable, concealable handgun. It just so happens that the deer poacher's weapon of choice is the quiet, spotlighted .22 rifle. Makes almost no noise, especially subsonic ammo and a well placed headshot takes the deer. If I saw you out there with a light and a .22, I'd think you were breaking the law but I still say to hold up in court, it's got to be provable.
I live on the outskirts of a mid-sized city, surrounded by mountains. When I first got my springer, I used to get home from work around 8PM and most nights after spending time with the kids and doing some chores, I didn't get him out walking until midnight. Most nights, while on out walks, it would be very quiet, no traffic. It was not hard to hear the .22's up on the mountain nearby several times in a 30 minute walk. Venison sell for a lot of money and some folks just can't resist.
Now a smart WCO knows that a 1911 round is not a reliable deer getter and who among us is going to present a gunshot deer at a meat cutter during bow season? PGC is making up rules to make their job easier and I can understand that but I'm not giving up any of my rights. Sorry, they're gonna have to go out and get the criminals instead of telling me I can't carry the gun the law says I can. If I'm wrong and I get caught, I'll have to fight it and see who wins. I think I'll ask my bro to argue my case!
Finn
I don't think I misunderstand you - I don't take your comments as arguing but I think you may not be hearing what I am saying. The law that governs concealed weapons IS the PA Concealed Carry Law NOT the PGC code. I simply do not believe that game law can over ride the carry law. The concealed carry law tells me where I may not carry and makes it legal for me to carry except where stated in the concealed carry law that I may not carry.
IMHO, the PGC may set their policy and revoke my license, the land owner may set his policy and ask me to leave his property but I do not believe I can be arrested when the concealed carry law gives me the right to carry everywhere except schools, courthouses, state parks, airports, etc. The fact that the WCO backed off years ago tells me that the carry law trumps the PGC code. He was so mad he wanted to do something but his older partner told him to stand down.
Now I disagree with your spotlighting example. Why? To me, if you are in your truck spotlighting, you are pretty safe. If you need protection, it sure won't be a .22 rifle. People who are serious about personal protection own at least one comfortably carryable, concealable handgun. It just so happens that the deer poacher's weapon of choice is the quiet, spotlighted .22 rifle. Makes almost no noise, especially subsonic ammo and a well placed headshot takes the deer. If I saw you out there with a light and a .22, I'd think you were breaking the law but I still say to hold up in court, it's got to be provable.
I live on the outskirts of a mid-sized city, surrounded by mountains. When I first got my springer, I used to get home from work around 8PM and most nights after spending time with the kids and doing some chores, I didn't get him out walking until midnight. Most nights, while on out walks, it would be very quiet, no traffic. It was not hard to hear the .22's up on the mountain nearby several times in a 30 minute walk. Venison sell for a lot of money and some folks just can't resist.
Now a smart WCO knows that a 1911 round is not a reliable deer getter and who among us is going to present a gunshot deer at a meat cutter during bow season? PGC is making up rules to make their job easier and I can understand that but I'm not giving up any of my rights. Sorry, they're gonna have to go out and get the criminals instead of telling me I can't carry the gun the law says I can. If I'm wrong and I get caught, I'll have to fight it and see who wins. I think I'll ask my bro to argue my case!
Finn
Okay, I usually don't reply to the posts about carrying a non-muzzleloading gun during a muzzleloading season (or any gun in archery), but here it goes. First, I am in NY I don't know the in's and out's of PA.
Last year, I arrested a guy for using a MZ, inline BTW, during the archery season. The officer in the next county south got at least one more case like that. It is illegal to have a gun of any kind in your PARTY in NY during archery and muzzleloader seasons because, as long as we have had those seasons some dink has tried shooting a deer and shoving an arrow in the wound. We have lead test kits to test suspected deer.
Some of those deer do show up at the meat cutter. My local butcher is one of my best sources. I keep saying I pray on the slow and the weak amongst his customers. Most go home and get butchered. People still that you know.
Actually, the game law or education law or any number of laws CAN restrict your carry permit further than the concealed carry law. The other laws can only restrict you in regards the scope of that laws authority. IOW, the game law can't restrict your right to carry at a school. The education law could but, wouldn't apply on state game lands off of school grounds. Am I explaining that well? I'm typing this pretty quickly.
It is not that the game officers don't trust you, but we don't. You could be the most upstanding guy around but, some other idiot is creating a situation that we must regulate. Think about if everyone was always legal and ethical we wouldn't need our laws. I don't know you or 99% of the people I encounter, I am not able to read your mind, I cannot investigate you to determine exactly what your intent is. I don't even need to prove intent in fact.
(Damn, I just lost part of post. I will try to do this again. :curse
As far as being afraid of animals in the woods. #1 they don't want to attack you 999,999 out of a million. Second you don't seem to think a 1911 is a deer round what do you think that same pistol will do for a bear? #3 you already are armed.
I sympathise with you about two legged vermin. However, the law is the law. Use your head and don't get in over it. :: Sorry bad pun.
Your statement theat the 1911 is not a deer round is patantly absurd. The .45 is much more powerful than any .22, which you state is a common and useful poachers gun. You are also thinking like a responsible sportsmen. That thinking does not apply to poachers and other assorted morons. Some people shoot becasue they want to shoot something. Recovering a the game doesn't always figure in to their thinking.
Your story of the encounter with the WCO. Yoiur bro didn't get cited because he didn't break the law. I twas the regular season. The officer initally was wrong and was corrected. Probably by his partner, who called someone else to confirm it. Your bro's attitude wasn't winning him any friends BTW.
"Sorry, they're gonna have to go out and get the criminals instead of telling me I can't carry the gun the law says I can. If I'm wrong and I get caught, I'll have to fight it and see who wins. I think I'll ask my bro to argue my case!"
Bring your wallet.
I'm not trying to start a flame war but, you are wrong and that is part of why. It is actually a lot more complicated than I made it out to be.
Keith- a NY game cop
Last year, I arrested a guy for using a MZ, inline BTW, during the archery season. The officer in the next county south got at least one more case like that. It is illegal to have a gun of any kind in your PARTY in NY during archery and muzzleloader seasons because, as long as we have had those seasons some dink has tried shooting a deer and shoving an arrow in the wound. We have lead test kits to test suspected deer.
Some of those deer do show up at the meat cutter. My local butcher is one of my best sources. I keep saying I pray on the slow and the weak amongst his customers. Most go home and get butchered. People still that you know.
Actually, the game law or education law or any number of laws CAN restrict your carry permit further than the concealed carry law. The other laws can only restrict you in regards the scope of that laws authority. IOW, the game law can't restrict your right to carry at a school. The education law could but, wouldn't apply on state game lands off of school grounds. Am I explaining that well? I'm typing this pretty quickly.
It is not that the game officers don't trust you, but we don't. You could be the most upstanding guy around but, some other idiot is creating a situation that we must regulate. Think about if everyone was always legal and ethical we wouldn't need our laws. I don't know you or 99% of the people I encounter, I am not able to read your mind, I cannot investigate you to determine exactly what your intent is. I don't even need to prove intent in fact.
(Damn, I just lost part of post. I will try to do this again. :curse
As far as being afraid of animals in the woods. #1 they don't want to attack you 999,999 out of a million. Second you don't seem to think a 1911 is a deer round what do you think that same pistol will do for a bear? #3 you already are armed.
I sympathise with you about two legged vermin. However, the law is the law. Use your head and don't get in over it. :: Sorry bad pun.
Your statement theat the 1911 is not a deer round is patantly absurd. The .45 is much more powerful than any .22, which you state is a common and useful poachers gun. You are also thinking like a responsible sportsmen. That thinking does not apply to poachers and other assorted morons. Some people shoot becasue they want to shoot something. Recovering a the game doesn't always figure in to their thinking.
Your story of the encounter with the WCO. Yoiur bro didn't get cited because he didn't break the law. I twas the regular season. The officer initally was wrong and was corrected. Probably by his partner, who called someone else to confirm it. Your bro's attitude wasn't winning him any friends BTW.
"Sorry, they're gonna have to go out and get the criminals instead of telling me I can't carry the gun the law says I can. If I'm wrong and I get caught, I'll have to fight it and see who wins. I think I'll ask my bro to argue my case!"
Bring your wallet.
I'm not trying to start a flame war but, you are wrong and that is part of why. It is actually a lot more complicated than I made it out to be.
Keith- a NY game cop
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Mr. Keith,
Thank you for sharing your insight. Not certain if I can express my thoughts as well as you have but here goes.
So far (here in Alaska), most of the time common sense over rides the desire to regulate/rule individuals simply because they MIGHT commit a crime. A person can carry a firearm whether they are bow hunting, camping, fishing, going to the bathroom or even visiting our parks. We don't seem to suffer for it. It would appear that the lower 48 (meaning no offense as we certainly have our own problems up here) is rushing to become a nation of laws rather than justice. Of course, many of you have already noticed this and said so.
As merely an observation, have noticed most personnel in "Law Enforcement" these days are exactly that. The old time Peace Officers that I grew up around did not conduct themselves in this fashion. Just my opinion and no reflection upon yourself is intended; as I don't know how you act in the field. Many today would see their conduct as an abuse (criminal's rights vs. victums) but I don't remember it as being such.
Sorry, I am getting too far off topic (even though I have barely scratched the surface of what I would like to express) and the moderator is certainly within his scope to delete any or all of the post.
Best Wishes
Thank you for sharing your insight. Not certain if I can express my thoughts as well as you have but here goes.
So far (here in Alaska), most of the time common sense over rides the desire to regulate/rule individuals simply because they MIGHT commit a crime. A person can carry a firearm whether they are bow hunting, camping, fishing, going to the bathroom or even visiting our parks. We don't seem to suffer for it. It would appear that the lower 48 (meaning no offense as we certainly have our own problems up here) is rushing to become a nation of laws rather than justice. Of course, many of you have already noticed this and said so.
As merely an observation, have noticed most personnel in "Law Enforcement" these days are exactly that. The old time Peace Officers that I grew up around did not conduct themselves in this fashion. Just my opinion and no reflection upon yourself is intended; as I don't know how you act in the field. Many today would see their conduct as an abuse (criminal's rights vs. victums) but I don't remember it as being such.
Sorry, I am getting too far off topic (even though I have barely scratched the surface of what I would like to express) and the moderator is certainly within his scope to delete any or all of the post.
Best Wishes
GobblerKnob
40 Cal.
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Maestro asked for some info. Hopefully, this'll clear up some of these issues. In Pennsylvania, it is unlawful for a person to carry any firearm, with or without a permit, while archery hunting for deer.
It is unlawful to use or possess single projectile ammunition during the flintlock muzzleloader season.
It is unlawful for a person to spotlight while in possession of any device capable of killing game or wildlife whether you have a permit to carry concealed or not.
I'm sorry, Finnwolf, but Title 34 (the Game and Wildlife Code) trumps the concealed carry law.
I noticed that someone mentioned they carry a pistol after already harvesting a deer. In PA, as long as you have a concealed carry permit, and no attempt is made to kill a second deer with that handgun is made, that practice is lawful. As long as you have a concealed carry permit, it is also lawful to carry that specific gun loaded in your vehicle.
If you choose to ignore the above while you are afield and are caught, you may face prosecution. I didn't write the laws and regs, I just enforce them. I hope this answers your questions, Maestro.
Rick
It is unlawful to use or possess single projectile ammunition during the flintlock muzzleloader season.
It is unlawful for a person to spotlight while in possession of any device capable of killing game or wildlife whether you have a permit to carry concealed or not.
I'm sorry, Finnwolf, but Title 34 (the Game and Wildlife Code) trumps the concealed carry law.
I noticed that someone mentioned they carry a pistol after already harvesting a deer. In PA, as long as you have a concealed carry permit, and no attempt is made to kill a second deer with that handgun is made, that practice is lawful. As long as you have a concealed carry permit, it is also lawful to carry that specific gun loaded in your vehicle.
If you choose to ignore the above while you are afield and are caught, you may face prosecution. I didn't write the laws and regs, I just enforce them. I hope this answers your questions, Maestro.
Rick
Maestro
Moderator
Just for the record... I didn't mean a .22 rifle - I was thinking of something totally ridiculous like a Beretta .22 AUTO pistol just to make the point - something I would never even carry for self defense (I'm a devoted .45 ACP fan)
Gobbler Knob's addressed this from the WCO's perspective. Ultimately then, I guess we a choice to make... :hmm: At least for me, fortuneately, I don't have to hunt on public land most of the time during archery & muzzleloader seasons and don't feel too much of a need to carry. (Feel a little naked without it, though!)
Keith, sorry you didn't read my post a little closer before you did all that typing.
#1 - I don't carry a .45 ACP in the woods - that's Maestro's gun. I carry the .357 S&W that my bro wore that day and I'm quite certain that I can handle anything in the woods with it 2, 4 or 6 legged. I don't hunt archery just ML and regular rifle but I would carry if I did bow hunt because of my experiences in the woods.
#2 - Animals don't want to attack you - tell that to the 400# black bear that had a yen for the pizza I was eating on a turkey hunt a few years ago. I moved 3 times and he followed me. I yelled at him repeatedly when he came within 20 yards and he kept coming. I cranked my slide shotgun to scare him but he just sat down in front of me. I had to dump my food and leave. Coulda been a lot worse. Then there's a rabid raccoon on another turkey hunt, foaming and growling to within 10 yards before I had to put both barrels in him and finish him with two .357's. Then there's the 6 or 7 coyotes I already mentioned on another turkey hunt and I have other examples. Being a WCO, you must be aware how many drunken two legged animals are out there.
3 - The .45 auto is NOT a deer getter and you know it. The .22 is used at night because deer are close and the gun is quiet. Not the case in daylight with a .45. I own one and would never consider it for deer. When I'm carrying a shotgun or a muzzleloader, I do not feel adequately armed for the experiences I have had in the field.
4 - The WCO in my post was going for the loaded gun in a vehicle law, not a handgun law. He was trying to make it out that we were sitting there in the truck with a loaded handgun waiting for a deer to walk by. And from my point of view, the only one with the attitude was the WCO. Came across as cocky and condescending and assumed we were up to something wrong and law abiding people do not like to be treated that way.
5 - I've stated my opinion and I've reseached it on the web a little but I don't think you read that either. I'll reseach it a bit more but I feel that if logic prevails, I am in the right. I've gone through the trouble of getting and keeping a protection permit so that I can carry a weapon when I feel the situation warrants it. Now I don't find a threat in a school, a courthouse, an airport - there are law enforcement officers in those places. I have seen dangers in the woods that prompt me to carry the weapon that I have the permit to carry. I won't give up that right because the PGC wants to make it harder for poachers - IMO, you have all the tools you need to catch these guys. Sure, I'll bring my wallet and my lawyer to defend that right any day. I am really tired of laws that punish the innocent.
Finnwolf
#1 - I don't carry a .45 ACP in the woods - that's Maestro's gun. I carry the .357 S&W that my bro wore that day and I'm quite certain that I can handle anything in the woods with it 2, 4 or 6 legged. I don't hunt archery just ML and regular rifle but I would carry if I did bow hunt because of my experiences in the woods.
#2 - Animals don't want to attack you - tell that to the 400# black bear that had a yen for the pizza I was eating on a turkey hunt a few years ago. I moved 3 times and he followed me. I yelled at him repeatedly when he came within 20 yards and he kept coming. I cranked my slide shotgun to scare him but he just sat down in front of me. I had to dump my food and leave. Coulda been a lot worse. Then there's a rabid raccoon on another turkey hunt, foaming and growling to within 10 yards before I had to put both barrels in him and finish him with two .357's. Then there's the 6 or 7 coyotes I already mentioned on another turkey hunt and I have other examples. Being a WCO, you must be aware how many drunken two legged animals are out there.
3 - The .45 auto is NOT a deer getter and you know it. The .22 is used at night because deer are close and the gun is quiet. Not the case in daylight with a .45. I own one and would never consider it for deer. When I'm carrying a shotgun or a muzzleloader, I do not feel adequately armed for the experiences I have had in the field.
4 - The WCO in my post was going for the loaded gun in a vehicle law, not a handgun law. He was trying to make it out that we were sitting there in the truck with a loaded handgun waiting for a deer to walk by. And from my point of view, the only one with the attitude was the WCO. Came across as cocky and condescending and assumed we were up to something wrong and law abiding people do not like to be treated that way.
5 - I've stated my opinion and I've reseached it on the web a little but I don't think you read that either. I'll reseach it a bit more but I feel that if logic prevails, I am in the right. I've gone through the trouble of getting and keeping a protection permit so that I can carry a weapon when I feel the situation warrants it. Now I don't find a threat in a school, a courthouse, an airport - there are law enforcement officers in those places. I have seen dangers in the woods that prompt me to carry the weapon that I have the permit to carry. I won't give up that right because the PGC wants to make it harder for poachers - IMO, you have all the tools you need to catch these guys. Sure, I'll bring my wallet and my lawyer to defend that right any day. I am really tired of laws that punish the innocent.
Finnwolf
In Oregon they had two hunts that over lapped each other. One was a special deer hunt and at the same time bear hunting was in full swing. Now my buddy and I were out hunting, completely legal. I had a deer tag he had a bear tag. A game officer stopped by and check out our tags and lic. he wouldn't let go of the idea that my buddy was trying to help me shoot a deer. My friend finely asked him why he thought he could write him up for hunting something legal, he said back to my buddy" I only have to write the ticket, it's up to the judge to decide who is right and who is wrong."
Long story short he did not write up my friend, but he did give us a hard time for about 20 min. They have since changed the rules, so that you have to have both tags to hunt bear during the dear and elk season AND it has to be an unused tag to boot. The minute you fill your deer or elk tag you have to quit hunting bear until that deer/elk season is over!
Larry
Long story short he did not write up my friend, but he did give us a hard time for about 20 min. They have since changed the rules, so that you have to have both tags to hunt bear during the dear and elk season AND it has to be an unused tag to boot. The minute you fill your deer or elk tag you have to quit hunting bear until that deer/elk season is over!
Larry
I apologize for highjaking the thread here, but the .45 ACP is a satisfactory 25 yard deer pistol with the proper bullet. It hits every bit as hard at 25 yards as a .54 muzzleloader does at 90 yards or so; both throwing 230 grain projectiles.
The conical bullets used in in-lines are those same pistol bullets, just driven a bit faster.
Stumpy,
I'll back off the statement about the .45 - I guess any caliber will take a deer at some yardage. I just never knew or read about anyone who hunted deer with a .45ACP handgun. The whole .45 issue really had nothing to do with my point anyway which is, I believe that if I get a protection permit, I have the right to legally carry anywhere except those places that the PA carry law defines as unlawful. I believe that's my right and I'll legally fight for it. The PGC will have to cite me and then prove I was doing something other than legally protecting myself from potential threats. I guess I'd just like to see them focusing more on the troublemakers and less on people who haven't broken a rule in 25 years of hunting and fishing.
Finnwolf
I'll back off the statement about the .45 - I guess any caliber will take a deer at some yardage. I just never knew or read about anyone who hunted deer with a .45ACP handgun. The whole .45 issue really had nothing to do with my point anyway which is, I believe that if I get a protection permit, I have the right to legally carry anywhere except those places that the PA carry law defines as unlawful. I believe that's my right and I'll legally fight for it. The PGC will have to cite me and then prove I was doing something other than legally protecting myself from potential threats. I guess I'd just like to see them focusing more on the troublemakers and less on people who haven't broken a rule in 25 years of hunting and fishing.
Finnwolf
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