I am looking for some info from you guys with the Lyman Black Powder book. I have a 50 cal rifle with 30 inch barrel, I am shooting .490 round ball with FFFg Goex. I would like the muzzle velocities for 60, 65, 70, 75, and 80 grain loads. Thanks for the helpguys.
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.490 Velocity
- Thread starter tx50cal
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Col. Batguano
75 Cal.
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Flint or cap? Flint needs about 10% more powder to achieve the same velocities as percussion.
hanshi
Cannon
I once chronographed a 42" barreled .50 flintlock I hunted with. It gave around 2100 fps. I won't bother to give the powder charge, even though it wasn't excessive. The load used a .490" ball and .018" patches. That kind of velocity isn't needed so I dropped it down to between 1700-1800 fps and maintained accuracy.
rodwha
58 Cal.
My 2nd Edition shows a 28" with 1:48" twist and a 32" with 1:60" twist. It does not give info on 5 grn increments.
28" barrel:
60 grns 1566 fps
70 grns 1657 fps
80 grns 1748 fps
90 grns 1830 fps
32" barrel:
60 grns 1571 fps
70 grns 1655 fps
80 grns 1739 fps
90 grns 1844 fps
All with 3F Goex and a .490 ball.
28" barrel:
60 grns 1566 fps
70 grns 1657 fps
80 grns 1748 fps
90 grns 1830 fps
32" barrel:
60 grns 1571 fps
70 grns 1655 fps
80 grns 1739 fps
90 grns 1844 fps
All with 3F Goex and a .490 ball.
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rodwha
58 Cal.
But then those are only helpful if you either have a range that allows you to set it up or enough land to shoot on...
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rodwha said:
And batteries, and a car to drive to the range, and someone to carry it for you, and a nice day to use it, and a Chinese interpreter to read you the instructions....
Life can be difficult if we choose to make it that way...
I stood gazing out the window one day at the horizon and the guy next to me said "are those deer on the horizon?" I said "NO.. those are cows"...See the feeder"..."Besides when have you ever seen black and white deer?"
I think that was his deciding moment to get eye surgery!
rodwha
58 Cal.
A very abstract way to look at it to say the least.
It also doesn't change the fact that not everyone has a place they can set one up.
It also doesn't change the fact that not everyone has a place they can set one up.
As a contrast, GOEX lists velocities for .50 caliber as:
50 3Fg = 1140
60 2Fg = 1390
70 2Fg = 1550
80 2Fg = 1730
90 2Fg = 1870
Note the change from 3fg to 2Fg. GOEX does not specify the barrel length. GOEX also lists the weight of the ball at 188 grains, which would be a .500 ball, not a 177 grain .490 ball. They list the weight for the .54 data as using a 236 grain ball which would be a .539 diameter. So I wonder if they got their velocities with a patched .490 and .530 ball and the person producing the chart was asked to add the bullet weights, and didn't know any better than to use a computer round ball calculator, and thought the ball diameter would match the "caliber" of the rifle just as in a modern weapon, sort of...,
LD
50 3Fg = 1140
60 2Fg = 1390
70 2Fg = 1550
80 2Fg = 1730
90 2Fg = 1870
Note the change from 3fg to 2Fg. GOEX does not specify the barrel length. GOEX also lists the weight of the ball at 188 grains, which would be a .500 ball, not a 177 grain .490 ball. They list the weight for the .54 data as using a 236 grain ball which would be a .539 diameter. So I wonder if they got their velocities with a patched .490 and .530 ball and the person producing the chart was asked to add the bullet weights, and didn't know any better than to use a computer round ball calculator, and thought the ball diameter would match the "caliber" of the rifle just as in a modern weapon, sort of...,
LD
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rodwha said:
I tend not to limit myself by thinking I can't do something....
The best answer is to chronograph your own gun....If you don't have a chronograph or a place to use one, then you have a different problem to solve that is unrelated to the first.
rodwha
58 Cal.
Knowing precisely one's velocity only works once though. The second and subsequent velocity checks will show that you don't truly know what the velocity is. Seems a similar load and barrel configuration potentially gets you into the ballpark. And being a little faster or slower isn't going to change the ballistics one will get or the trajectory enough to worry about, right?
But then maybe someone asks not because they require accurate information, but after just a general idea or a desire to quench one's curiousity.
4" barrel difference and twist rate change certainly didn't impact the velocities shown enough to worry about, did it? So maybe it's not quite the problem after all...
But then maybe someone asks not because they require accurate information, but after just a general idea or a desire to quench one's curiousity.
4" barrel difference and twist rate change certainly didn't impact the velocities shown enough to worry about, did it? So maybe it's not quite the problem after all...
rodwha
58 Cal.
Just for grins I decided to compare the Goex listed 70 grn charge to the Lyman listed charge w/28" barrel, but didn't bother with the 32" barrel as the 2 fps difference wouldn't have mattered anyway.
At 1550 fps it begins with 944 ft/lbs. At 100 yds it still has 372 ft/lbs. Zeroed at 100 yds in a 10 mph crosswind it drifted 10.8". At 125 yds it still has 328 ft/lbs and has dropped 4.6" and drifted 16.3".
At 1655 fps it begins with 1077 ft/lbs. At 100 yds it still has 397 ft/lbs and drifted 10.7". At 125 yds it still has 346 ft/lbs and dropped 4.3" and drifted 16.3".
Despite roughly a 100 fps difference we see that it makes little difference down range where it counts. Animals won't behave differently when struck by a ball with 20 ft/lbs less energy. The wind drift is essentially the same and the ~1/4" drop difference isn't going to be the deciding factor of whether or not you hit the vitals.
Even a 10 grn increase to 1739 fps adds very little difference having drifted just 16.2" and dropped 4" at 125 yds.
At 1550 fps it begins with 944 ft/lbs. At 100 yds it still has 372 ft/lbs. Zeroed at 100 yds in a 10 mph crosswind it drifted 10.8". At 125 yds it still has 328 ft/lbs and has dropped 4.6" and drifted 16.3".
At 1655 fps it begins with 1077 ft/lbs. At 100 yds it still has 397 ft/lbs and drifted 10.7". At 125 yds it still has 346 ft/lbs and dropped 4.3" and drifted 16.3".
Despite roughly a 100 fps difference we see that it makes little difference down range where it counts. Animals won't behave differently when struck by a ball with 20 ft/lbs less energy. The wind drift is essentially the same and the ~1/4" drop difference isn't going to be the deciding factor of whether or not you hit the vitals.
Even a 10 grn increase to 1739 fps adds very little difference having drifted just 16.2" and dropped 4" at 125 yds.
rodwha
58 Cal.
Now to be fair I like numbers. I'm one who often prefers to know. Ballpark figures are ok though and work just fine in this instance for certain. One might even say the money and time spent fiddling with a chronograph is wasted when there's published info out there.
However these numbers we find don't speak to how our own loads and procedures impact deviations. It may not impact those numbers much but certainly impacts group sizes. But then a chronograph isn't needed for that is it?
However these numbers we find don't speak to how our own loads and procedures impact deviations. It may not impact those numbers much but certainly impacts group sizes. But then a chronograph isn't needed for that is it?
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My 50 cal simply prefers 90 grains of 3f Goex over any other charge. I'm not shooting at 100 yards, so similarities or differences in numbers out that far are just simple theory only good for jaw work.
I will say there's one thing I notice though:
Deer at closer ranges usually drop right in their tracks when hit with that 90 grain load rather than 60 grains. Let a deer run a few hundred feet, and your life can get a little too interesting.
That can be a huge difference on evening shoots in the brush where you're running out of light. The quicker a deer drops, the easier time I have of joining up with it and getting a move on toward my truck. Dragging a deer through the dark is noooooo fun in bear country.
I will say there's one thing I notice though:
Deer at closer ranges usually drop right in their tracks when hit with that 90 grain load rather than 60 grains. Let a deer run a few hundred feet, and your life can get a little too interesting.
That can be a huge difference on evening shoots in the brush where you're running out of light. The quicker a deer drops, the easier time I have of joining up with it and getting a move on toward my truck. Dragging a deer through the dark is noooooo fun in bear country.
rodwha
58 Cal.
A 30 grn charge difference is a whole different animal, and one that's outside of this conversation.
For further grins I decided to check the differences with the above loads with a 50 yd zero.
The Goex listed charge at 50 yds has 537 ft/lbs and is pushed 2.8". At 75 yds it still has 436 ft/lbs has dropped 1.8" and drifted 6.2".
The Lyman listed charge at 50 yds has 602 ft/lbs and is pushed 2.7". At 75 yds it retains 474 ft/lbs, has dropped 1.6" and drifted 6.1".
The trajectory and wind drift differences are still irrelevant as is the 75 yd energy/velocity difference (1053 fps vs 1099 fps). At 50 yds we see less than 75 ft/lbs of additional energy. Does that truly make all the difference? Maybe, but I'm rather skeptical.
Oh, and out there that far has numbers according to a ballistics calculator. It's not theory but math. Now ones ability to accurately shoot that far and hold a good enough group at that range is another story. But it seems there are plenty of people on this forum alone who have done so, which again makes it more than just a theory, right? Experiences seems to be much more than "jaw work."
For further grins I decided to check the differences with the above loads with a 50 yd zero.
The Goex listed charge at 50 yds has 537 ft/lbs and is pushed 2.8". At 75 yds it still has 436 ft/lbs has dropped 1.8" and drifted 6.2".
The Lyman listed charge at 50 yds has 602 ft/lbs and is pushed 2.7". At 75 yds it retains 474 ft/lbs, has dropped 1.6" and drifted 6.1".
The trajectory and wind drift differences are still irrelevant as is the 75 yd energy/velocity difference (1053 fps vs 1099 fps). At 50 yds we see less than 75 ft/lbs of additional energy. Does that truly make all the difference? Maybe, but I'm rather skeptical.
Oh, and out there that far has numbers according to a ballistics calculator. It's not theory but math. Now ones ability to accurately shoot that far and hold a good enough group at that range is another story. But it seems there are plenty of people on this forum alone who have done so, which again makes it more than just a theory, right? Experiences seems to be much more than "jaw work."
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rodwha said:
In your mind maybe, but the rest of us are talking about a 40 grain difference, with charges listed all the way from 50 grains to 90 grains.
Please do carry on with your conversation dictates, and I'll carry my practical insights elsewhere. :dead:
rodwha
58 Cal.
Ah, those charge differences and the velocities they produced are indeed what the OP was about. Eventually it became about chronographed results, and whether published results were relevant, which was the point I had made.
As I noted the difference between that minimum and maximum charge is a whole different issue, that the differences do matter, much more so at closer range such as those you hunt at. At 100 yds the difference in energy between 60 and 90 grns is just about 75 ft/lbs and just 50 at 125 yds. At 125 yds it has dropped an additional inch at -4.6" and the wind drift is an additional 1/2".
So at 75 yds the difference in 60 and 90 grns isn't extreme by any means and beyond that it becomes somewhat insignificant. It seems to only really shine closer up where drop and drift are still inconsequential.
We can only guess at what the OP's intentions were for asking for published velocities though. And in truth he asked for a 20 grn spread from 60 to 80 grns.
As I noted the difference between that minimum and maximum charge is a whole different issue, that the differences do matter, much more so at closer range such as those you hunt at. At 100 yds the difference in energy between 60 and 90 grns is just about 75 ft/lbs and just 50 at 125 yds. At 125 yds it has dropped an additional inch at -4.6" and the wind drift is an additional 1/2".
So at 75 yds the difference in 60 and 90 grns isn't extreme by any means and beyond that it becomes somewhat insignificant. It seems to only really shine closer up where drop and drift are still inconsequential.
We can only guess at what the OP's intentions were for asking for published velocities though. And in truth he asked for a 20 grn spread from 60 to 80 grns.
rodwha
58 Cal.
"Please do carry on with your conversation dictates..."
As the OP only asked about velocities, and I addressed that, as well as the differences those velocities delivered it seems I'm hardly dictating, but am right on point, and not about how far a deer may run in bear infested lands.
As the OP only asked about velocities, and I addressed that, as well as the differences those velocities delivered it seems I'm hardly dictating, but am right on point, and not about how far a deer may run in bear infested lands.
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