Non-Firing replica 1766 Charleville Infantry Musket

It is my understanding also that in India, like here in the USA for modern guns, no one can manufacture any form of working firearm without strict government approval.
That is not that different from many countries and many other manufacturers.
A few years back I purchased a made in Belgium, by Stoeger Arms, a French pattern musket without the touch hole drilled. The barrel had Belgian proof stamps on it and an indent where the touch hole was to be drilled. This allowed it to be sold without permit throughout Europe by mail order as it was not a working firearm but was simple to convert by the purchaser. And yes, batch proofing of barrels is legal in many countries and most of the modern guns sold today are not individually proof tested.

I own an Indian made Fussil de Chase. It is from Loyalist Arms. It sparks well. It is heavy due to weight of the barrel (wall thickness) and teak wood stock. The price was much better than a custom made one.
By my preference, I am willing to own less than custom made pieces so that I can have a greater selection of firearms.
It is your choice as to whether you want to own one really nice rifle or musket or several that are not quite as nice.

Woody

Wow, didn't mean to start a skirmish (good thing I didn't ask about what kind of bee is used in your beeswax) The gun I'm wanting is one similar to what the seditious colonist might have used against her majesties troops. The French 1766 Charleville pattern. I would like something that is capable of firing but l will likely fire less than 50 rounds before it becomes an issue for my heirs (of which there will be many <Grin>)

22dr45 said:

I'm considering one of these Non-Firing replica rifles. From what I can gather they are not drilled for a touch hole but all else is functional. I have access to the right machinery or could just farm it out to a local smith to have it drilled. Does anyone have first hand experience with converting a non-firing replica (like the ones offered by Access Heritage) into a functional flintlock?

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I have purchased a non-firing musket from Military Heritage a year or so ago, it has proven to be an excellent piece. I watched several videos on how and exactly where to drill the touch-hole and the proper size drill bit to use. Everything worked out well. I also did a little customization, such as antiquing the barrel and hardware. It is a good looking safe shooter. Just make sure you do your research and do it right.

22dr45 said:

Wow, didn't mean to start a skirmish (good thing I didn't ask about what kind of bee is used in your beeswax) The gun I'm wanting is one similar to what the seditious colonist might have used against her majesties troops. The French 1766 Charleville pattern. I would like something that is capable of firing but l will likely fire less than 50 rounds before it becomes an issue for my heirs (of which there will be many <Grin>)

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The Indian model 1766’s I’ve seen tend to be more in common with US Springfields and 1808 contract muskets.

US muskets were generally beefier than french guns, and weighed anywhere from 9.5 - 11 lbs.

You specifically said you wanted a 1766 Charleville, there are no patterns from any Indian makers that will fit that pattern of musket…. Why?

1. Weight, 1766 Charleville’s weighed just under 9lbs.
2. They were all stocked in walnut with very lock panels that were lean and detailed, and a deeply flutted butt stock that had a french curve design as a check piece. Indian guns are stocked it teak and defarbing their stocks are not possible to fit a 1766, the buttstock s are too narrow to accommodate the french curve.
3. The Charleville Locks were very sturdy, and the locks were of the best design for their period. Dave Person has a post discussing that lock reproduced by Miroku, it’s probably the best musket flintlock ever designed.Indian made locks have almost nothing in common with a Charleville lock and their quality i rate as poor in terms of geometry.
4. The barrel had was designed with a bellied tapper, meaning somewhere around 12” from the breech the tapper slimmed down significantly, this helped reduce the weight of the gun.
5. A 1766 charleville had a friction fit rear band, was not spring fixed until 1768 when the resdeigned the stocks with a step for the rear band.
6. The upper band had a very distinct design which separates it from all other models including Springfields. The front was slightly curved upward with a lip in the rear that pointed higher to assist in retaining the rammer.

You simply will not find these features in any indian made charleville musket, the best two reproductions for charlevilles are the Navy Arms Charleville which was made by Miroku, these auction for around 700-1000, an Indian made gun will sell for 600-700, you’d want to spend your money on quality, go for the navy arms when they come up, and you’d want to contact Paul Ackerman of Ackerman arms to get on his list.

The 1777 Charleville by pedersoli is not a 1766 but is a very nice design, and is very similar to an original 1777 with a few small details missing.

the 1763 pedersoli Charleville is also a nice design, not historically accurate but the gun is a very good quality musket.

The Rifle Shoppe offers a variety of Charleville kits, their 1766 is a copy of an original. Its a very light musket, just under 8 1/2 lbs with a very decent copy of a charleville lock marked St.Entine. Problems, the front sight is casted steel, it was brass. The kit and cost to build is significantly higher, but it is a near exact copy. I’m working on their 1763 kit and a 1766 lock currently, the castings are very good with the 1766 being the better of the two locks.

I’d pass up the Indian model for a navy arms or Dixie gun works miroku charleville, you will not be disappointed.

John Spartan said:

Lots of info flying back and forth. Maybe I need more coffee because I am not sure where we are landing here.
FWIW (knowing nothing of Indian export law) I was told point blank by one of the Canadian importers/sellers of these muskets that there are no touch holes so THEY can sell them - to the USA specifically - as non-firearms and drop them in the mail to buyers otherwise it would be a big ATF/import/export/licensing deal getting them here. How it works buying IN Canada or Europe I dunno. How true is the above? Also dunno. But it hardly matters as…

FWIW #2 I wouldn’t own a Indian musket for many reasons mentioned here. I’m sure they may be good ones but I don’t think it can be argued there are bad ones too. So far all my Euro made models have been flawless. When I put a explosive metal tube in front of my face I want some piece of mind and like seeing a European proof mark. I’ll pay the few extra dollars for my face, fingers, eyes, fit, finish, and parts availability.

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If I am not mistaken, I believe I have read numerous accounts on this website of Italian made products having dangerous malfunctions. I understand the apprehension one may feel about a fire arm coming from an unfamiliar source, but to believe something is superior just because it has a European origin has the potential of limiting one's outlook on many things.

Rock Home Isle said:

The Indian Manufacturers are not allowed to manufacture fully functional firearms, in India. This restriction goes back to British Colonialism. To get around these legal restirctions, they manufacture a firearm, that will be fully functional, in every respect, once the flash hole is drilled. This also allows these firearms to be easily exported. Nothing to do with liability….nothing to do with import/export laws.

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There is a entire industry in India that makes fake firearms. Bollywood uses them! It is illegal to use real firearms in their movies etc. (IMHO)

BTW if you do end up choosing an indian made musket, I’d only purchase from Loyalist Arms, they’re very nice people with a reliable shop, they will help you if something goes wrong with the musket.

Middlesex: dont’ buy from Pete, he takes payments for muskets he doesn’t have in stock and expects you to wait while he holds your cash, if you break off the deal he will likely not refund you the entire amount even though you loaned him the cash to purchase a musket from India.

Veteran Arms: I’ve seen a lot of quality problems from these guns, broken stocks to bad locks.

Military Heritage: not a bad shop but don’t expect any assistance if something goes wrong with the musket.

Zapadach said:

If I am not mistaken, I believe I have read numerous accounts on this website of Italian made products having dangerous malfunctions. I understand the apprehension one may feel about a fire arm coming from an unfamiliar source, but to believe something is superior just because it has a European origin has the potential of limiting one's outlook on many things.

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There have been a few accounts of blown Indian made barrels, but these are mostly due to poor care. The Brown Bess that exploded from middlesex did unseam from the weld beneath the barrel though, while its one case, DOM barrels that are are welded close to the breech where the vent is could blowout.

Otherwise, i think Indian barrels are generally safe, I just will never use a Drawn over mandrel barrel (DOM), they’re often quoted a red herring, its a personal choice.

As far as Italian guns are concerned, I’ve never heard of a dangerous malfunction other than a guy who loaded a pedersoli Springfield with smokeless powder, now has a hook for a hand.

Do any of these come with factory drilled and tapped for a touch hole liner. They could include a drilled liner but ship them with a undrilled liner just to beat the laws. Just curious.

maillemaker said:

Which assertion in particular are you saying is wrong? In what way is it wrong?



Yes, I am aware of why the manufacturers are not manufacturing them to be functional firearms.


I am always cautious not to speak in absolutes on this subject. I don't own any Indian-made replicas. I can only go on what I have read on the internet about them. This is why I always caveat my statements with "my understanding", etc.

What I have read leads me to understand that the Indian manufacturers are not manufacturing their replicas as functional firearms. As Flint62Smoothie said, I have read that this is to avoid firearm import/export laws. But the reason is irrelevant. The point is, the manufacturer is not selling them as a functional firearm. Thus they will not lawfully be liable if something goes wrong and you (or someone else) modified the the non-functional replica to work like a firearm.

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And hence the reason we have warnings on bottles of draino not to drink it. You shouldn't be shooting guns. Bassetball might be mo yo style.

My French Infantry musket from Veteran arms weighs 9#6oz. I did rework the stock a little to make it look more like an original, but only took off a few ounces. The lock works great, and accuracy with a round ball is as good as any smoothbore I have seen.

okawbow said:

My French Infantry musket from Veteran arms weighs 9#6oz. I did rework the stock a little to make it look more like an original, but only took off a few ounces. The lock works great, and accuracy with a round ball is as good as any smoothbore I have seen. View attachment 158562

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Looks more like marine or grenadiers musket.



I’ve worked on these before, yours look decent the one I had was around 12 lbs. barrel was oversized. Lock looked nothing like a 1728 lock.



See attachment

http://www.ladybemused.com/jaeger/NRA/The Revolutionary Charleville.htm

Zapadach said:

If I am not mistaken, I believe I have read numerous accounts on this website of Italian made products having dangerous malfunctions. I understand the apprehension one may feel about a fire arm coming from an unfamiliar source, but to believe something is superior just because it has a European origin has the potential of limiting one's outlook on many things.

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Well. I’m a little speechless after reading that but getting my second wind.
My point was the concept of barrel proofing, how it is done, and what the proof marks mean to that barrel versus non-proofed untested barrels made to completely unknown standards and by unknown methods.

I don't own an Indian made firearm but I did look them up and did about as much research as I cared to. Is there any proof of one of these muskets blowing up in a shooters hand that wasn't error in over loading? Wouldn't any firearm "explode" or the risk of explosion be greater with an uneducated shooter. I tried to find one of these incidents without much luck other than.." I knew somebody that knew somebody" or "I've been told"

Delta24 said:

I don't own an Indian made firearm but I did look them up and did about as much research as I cared to. Is there any proof of one of these muskets blowing up in a shooters hand that wasn't error in over loading? Wouldn't any firearm "explode" or the risk of explosion be greater with an uneducated shooter. I tried to find one of these incidents without much luck other than.." I knew somebody that knew somebody" or "I've been told"

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There are three known incidents, two in the United States and one in England where the musket barrels burst.

The most notable one is the Brown Bess from middlesex, the barrel burst from the breech up about 11 inches and it unraveled at the DOM welding seam. A report was filed on it, however the report was about the metallurgy of the barrel itself, and not about the way it was made. I knew of the person whose barrel blew up, and he actually showed it to us at re-enactments. The weld at the breech gave way just a few mm from the vent. My opinion is that the weld wasn’t don’t correctly from the breech up about 6 inches, they likely used an arch/stick weld instead of a deep penetrating TIG or MIG and didn’t use the right welding material to temper the steel with . I’m not an expert welder but I do know that I would never weld a barrel I’d have a gunsmith do the weld at a barrel shop. In Indian, I doubt they do those welds on DOM barrels with efficiency or standards, they simply just weld it. To add, I also knew the fella didn’t really take care of the musket and would dump 150 grains in it, however the barrel should still not have blown as he wasn’t ramming paper or shot.

DOM barrels even those from the 18th century have been found on occasions to blowout from the welded area, the difference is 18th century barrels were rigorously proofed by the militaries that made them, today they are not.

I’m not a fan of DOM (drawn over mandrel barrels), and i think there far better ways to make a barrel today from solid steel stock and tubing. Not saying you can’t buy an indian made barrel but if you do, I’d make sure its sold steel tubing, hydraulic tubing or carbon steel or high pressure tool steel stock.

Delta24 said:

I don't own an Indian made firearm but I did look them up and did about as much research as I cared to. Is there any proof of one of these muskets blowing up in a shooters hand that wasn't error in over loading? Wouldn't any firearm "explode" or the risk of explosion be greater with an uneducated shooter. I tried to find one of these incidents without much luck other than.." I knew somebody that knew somebody" or "I've been told"

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I think any barrel could explode if one overloads it or loads it with the incorrect type of gunpowder, and this has happened before. Its usually folks using smokeless gunpowder in a black powder barrel.

Blackpowder barrels generally don’t burst from blackpowder, unless its dont so carelessly without ramming all the way etc or lack of care.

Indian made guns that have burst did so with just powder, and no shot. Its an obvious risk, but statistically not a great concern.

Somewhat related: I have seen multiple vids over the past couple years from multiple people who have actively tried to blow up muzzle loading barrels by all sorts of no-no’s. Blockages, misloads, even packing the barrel absolutely full of black powder and besides a hellacious recoil 90% of the time there was no external evidence of “barrel trauma.” The other 10% was barrel bulging, nipple blowing, and maybe a minor crack by memory. And it took a couple tries mostly. These were with good quality commercial (proofed) barrels.
The only dramatic results were when smokeless powder was used.
Ultimately I feel, with a good quality modern (proofed) barrel, there is such a large margin of safety built in between manufacturer recommended loads and the quality of steel and construction of reputable barrels that a mishap seems “almost” impossible. Modern replicas are heavier then their historical counterparts (by 10-20%) and reportedly its all in a thicker barrel. And one presumes the steel is of a much better quality. Of course all my opinion and remembered reading.

But its still a free country…for now anyway. I don’t own stock in American or European barrel makers and proof houses so if you want to shoot Indian (or whoever) muskets be my guest.

So many minds. So unchanged.

okawbow said:

My French Infantry musket from Veteran arms weighs 9#6oz. I did rework the stock a little to make it look more like an original, but only took off a few ounces. The lock works great, and accuracy with a round ball is as good as any smoothbore I have seen. View attachment 158562

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That looks a lot better than their matchlocks, which are manure.
Jay

FWIW many US sourced muzzleloaders use SOM barrels …