Nipple hole

Is there a standard for nipple hole diameter in competitive shooting. I have needles that I can mic the hole size. When is the hole to big? Is there a standard? Or is it just when accuracy diminishes?

Not sure if there is a standard hole size, but I have found that when the hole starts to erode bigger my accuracy goes down the tubes. I replace nipples as soon as that starts.

Accuracy will DEFINITELY diminish as the hole starts getting too big!

When I was the Team Armourer for the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team, I warned Team Members about this and tried to get everyone to put a new nipple in each percussion gun before we went to the World Championships in Wedgnock, UK. One of our best Women Shooters did not do it and thank Heaven when the rifle's accuracy "went to heck," it was on the first day of practice. So I replaced it with a new nipple and the rifle went right back to Gold Medal winning accuracy.

What I advise anyone who shoots percussion guns in competition is to put a NEW nipple in each gun at the beginning of the year and ensure it holds the accuracy of the old nipple. Sometimes factory new nipples don't have a good flash hole. It is very unusual, but I have seen it before.) A new nipple each year is CHEAP insurance to make sure your gun doesn't go down in the middle of a match any time that year. Either throw the old Nipple away or drill it out and/or mark it so you can use it with a plastic hose to wash the bore, but never use the old nipple to shoot the gun again.

I also advise everyone to have at least one spare nipple per gun at all times and have a nipple wrench with them any time they shoot the gun. A clogged or damaged nipple can otherwise mess up a good hunt or target shooting session, if you don't have a spare nipple and wrench with you.

Gus

One of the main issues of a large hole in a nipple the hammer when fired is blown back to half cock position
Feltwad

Artificer said:

Accuracy will DEFINITELY diminish as the hole starts getting too big!

When I was the Team Armourer for the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team, I warned Team Members about this and tried to get everyone to put a new nipple in each percussion gun before we went to the World Championships in Wedgnock, UK. One of our best Women Shooters did not do it and thank Heaven when the rifle's accuracy "went to heck," it was on the first day of practice. So I replaced it with a new nipple and the rifle went right back to Gold Medal winning accuracy.

What I advise anyone who shoots percussion guns in competition is to put a NEW nipple in each gun at the beginning of the year and ensure it holds the accuracy of the old nipple. Sometimes factory new nipples don't have a good flash hole. It is very unusual, but I have seen it before.) A new nipple each year is CHEAP insurance to make sure your gun doesn't go down in the middle of a match any time that year. Either throw the old Nipple away or drill it out and/or mark it so you can use it with a plastic hose to wash the bore, but never use the old nipple to shoot the gun again.

I also advise everyone to have at least one spare nipple per gun at all times and have a nipple wrench with them any time they shoot the gun. A clogged or damaged nipple can otherwise mess up a good hunt or target shooting session, if you don't have a spare nipple and wrench with you.

Gus

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So Gus, are those a regular nipple or a platinum lined nipple? How many shots can a person usually get out of most nipples? I know it is not an exact number, but guess a little please.

I don’t have valid information on the Platinum lined nipples, as they came out after I left the “Round Ball” competition scene and no one was using them much on UnCivil War era Arms in competition, when I had to give that up in 2005.

The excuse the Lady shooter gave for not changing the Ampco/Brass nipple in her original underhammer percussion match rifle was that another Team Member had “gone over her rifle” 14 months before and proclaimed the rifle and nipple still good. FORTUNATELY, he had re-tapped it for a modern ¼ x 28 TPI nipple, so I had no problem replacing it with a new one in Wedgnock. As it turned out the Team Member who had done that, was also with us at Wedgnock. When he came up and asked what had been wrong with her rifle and I informed him I had replaced the nipple, he just shook his head. He informed me he had told her the nipple would be “good” up until the last couple three months of the shooting season 14 months before, but that she needed a new one the following season, which she had not remembered.

Now I sure wish I could give you an estimated “round count” on how long a nipple would generally last in either a Round Ball or Minie’ Ball Rifle. However, there were only a couple of Team Members on the National Team who kept “data books” on each of their guns and they replaced their nipples before accuracy began to suffer. (Gee, I couldn’t get even some of the best shooters to change their nipples before going to the World Competition and even though I suggested they also keep data books on their guns, that turned out to be something most would not do.)

The problem is that not knowing what caliber of gun you have and how heavy of a charge you generally shoot, I can’t give you even a poor estimate of how many rounds fired before you should replace a nipple for competition accuracy as light loads will cause a nipple not to wear as soon as heavy charges. However, IF you keep an accurate round count in a data book on each of your guns, then you will eventually find out for sure how many rounds you can fire before you must change a nipple in that gun before it begins losing accuracy.

Having said that, if one puts a new nipple in at the beginning of each competition season, I’m pretty certain it will remain good even for those who shoot their guns in competition the most shots each season.

Gus

Just as an aside, the late Linton McKenzie of engraving fame acquired a very rusty and very used .44 Remington Army revolver; he was still a schoolboy at the time.
The nipples were very corroded and he drilled them out, suffice to say when he fired it there was a longish roar and all six chambers went off.
The pistol had fired "Full Auto" as each discharge blew the hammer to full cock and rotated the cylinder.

Probably Sam Colt discovered full automatic when he was experimenting with his first revolving pistols.

I shoot Large Conical Bullets exclusively, And 80-95 Grains of Swiss Real Blackpowder. Treso/Ampco Nipples are by far the most durable i have tested, i have well over 100 shots on several different Treso nipples and they are stil going strong. The Flash Hole is a tiny .028 New, i am at .030-.031, I was going through Stainless RMC nipples in roughly 30 Shots. I keep track of the Flash hole size with torch tip cleaners and Dial calipers. As stated above by Articifer, lighter charges will wear less. Another way of putting it, large heavy conical bullets and large powder charges will erode nipples much faster than PRB and lighter powder charges.

That was exactly what I was looking for except I would really like to know how many (aprrox) shots before replacement. I am shooting Weber platinum nipples and they are great and last a long time, but I might have to replace one , but it has a lot of shots thru it, like 540 grains pushed by 90 grains of Swiss. Thanks

Blowback through a percussion nipple is a function of many factors, including the brand, grain size, and quality of the powder, amount of the charge, the brand and age of your percussion caps, (some are hotter than others) the fit of the patch/ball combination, the lube you're using,
the condition of your rifle bore, and --- the most obvious: the erosion (enlargement) of the nipple hole. It's about pressure and temperature. On top of all of that, the material the nipple is made from: brass, Ampco, steel, stainless steel, platinum lined, vented or not vented --- all of these things can affect how long a nipple will last. Nobody can give you a realistic estimate of how many shots you should expect to get until you can tell them those details. Even then, if you change something the answer will change. From a practical viewpoint, carry one or more spare nipples --- and a nipple wrench too, dangit --- in your hunting pouch. The first time you fire and the hammer of your percussion rifle is not resting on the nipple afterwards, pull it and put in your spare. Take the "old" one home and scrub all the powder fouling off it, look it over carefully, and keep it handy as a sample of one-shot-too-many wear and tear. That's assuming you didn't pour extra powder or accidentally double-ball your last shot. Increase the pressure in that barrel enough and something will give. On a percussion rifle, that something is often the nipple, or sometimes the drum if it's a drum type breech.

cannonball1 said:

When is the hole to big? Is there a standard?

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No, there isn't a standard. Manufacturers have different sizes, a lot of it has to do with patent infringement.
Here's the gig,, we each develop an accurate load for each of our rifles with the components we have at hand,, defining that accuracy is up to the individual.
I have found Knight RedHot nipples to work well with my loading regime. The actual orifice for those nipples is .032
I get around 300 shot's with those using a hot load of T7 under a tight PRB combo before the group starts to open. I have never measured to see if they open to .033 or more because of use,, simply because gas-cutting isn't always "round" or symmetrical.
I've tried other nipples, some that just happened to have larger and smaller orifice size, but my load variables need to change to get the same accuracy I want. Keeping the same nipple (for me) is just another variable I can control.
Point is, there isn't really a defined "best" orifice size because the other load issues can and should be adapted to the combination.
Get it?
For me, the relative inexpensive nipple is easy to change and experience has shown that it's one of the simplest to test. When none of the other load dynamics have changed,, getting a new/clean nipple brings it back together.

I have noticed the elongated in some of the old nipples I have thrown away. I don't like the TC nipples because of the bigger hole of .032 or there abouts and I didn't get as many shots as I was expecting. This is using the 540 grain bullet as I mentioned above. I have been using platinum nipples, but one of those is getting a rectangular hole in it, but I have shot a lot of shots. I just didn't keep track. Ampco has an .028 orifice and I can purchase 6 of them for 5 bucks apiece. Thanks Idaholewis for the tip on the Ampco nipples. I didn't realize they had a smaller hole. I know that there are so many variables even the 300 shots that necci was talking about is just that much more information. I have been at this many years with the old round ball. There is new world out there to be learned with the traditionals and the unmentionables. Enjoy your participation.

necchi said:

No, there isn't a standard. Manufacturers have different sizes, a lot of it has to do with patent infringement.

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You can patent the size of a drilled hole?!?!