Tennessee Valley

I had a TVM rifle and loved it. However, I didn't order it and although it was a left hand lock it didn't quite have enough length of pull for me, so I traded it for a custom LH Hawken reproduction which did have the LOP I needed. The advice to spend the extra money on a swamped barrel should be heeded as the difference is very noticeable. Essentially the swamped barrel is filed thinner in the middle and gently returns to the original outside dimensions at the muzzle. It may not sound like much but it not only lightens the barrel without affecting the integrity but makes for a less nose heavy rifle that swings on to target with much less effort on your part. Also, the measurements such as length of pull, drop and cast off will be incorporated into the rifle you order. TVM does great work and I have them working on an early Virginia rifle made to my specs in .54. If you order from them you will have a wait time of at least 6 months up to a year. They are popular for a reason. However, a trip to Tip Curtis would be well worth it and if I had to do it all over again, I would have shouldered as many types of rifles as I could get my hands on. More importantly, I would not have purchased any production gun, even if it was left handed once I understood how important it is to get something that fit me, instead of me trying to fit myself to the gun. Most production guns cater to the average buyer who is of average proportions. You may find that a high end production rifle fits you well but again, there aren't any options from the factory for you to customize it and make it uniquely your own. Another thing to keep in mind is the buttplate, or lack thereof. You don't shoulder a muzzle loader as you would a modern rifle. Rather, you "hook" the curve of the butt stock onto your upper arm. This is especially true with the rifles having a very curved or crescent buttplate. If you have a physical problem, arthritis, back injury, shoulder problems then you may want to have a flat, shotgun style buttplate. That's where the advantage of having something custom built comes in. I've never owned a Tip Curtis gun but a friend has one and it is a quality piece.
I don't know what your budget it but my last bit of advice is that after you factor in the swamped barrel, get the highest grade wood that you can afford, even if it's a Southern Poor Boy. Then decide on the species of wood you like. If it's walnut then get that. If it's maple then get the highest grade you can afford and decide on the color and type of finish that you like. Show off the beauty of that wood!
Hope this helps your decision and by all means, ask more questions if you need to.

I have both a TVM Iron Mounted Pennsylvania Rifle and Tip's version of an Issac Haines Smooth Bore. I am in the process of selling 30+ years of accumulated Thompson Center side lock guns. Not to fund anything, but very simply put I haven't shot a Thompson Center since acquiring the TVM and Tip Curtis guns.

TVM was made to order, never shouldered one until I got mine. The advice from TVM was spot on. I did however know the LOP and a few other dimensions that I wanted.

My Issac Haines was purchased with the help and advice of Mr. Curtis. I'll just say that Tip knows long rifles and smoothbore weapons. Simply perfect.

Both weapons are accurate to the point of being ridiculous. The Haines will clover leaf three shots at 50 yards all day long and nearly that good at 70 yards. Not bad for a smoothbore with no rear sight. The TVM will shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards. Technology from the 1700s, ancient iron sights, patched round ball, and near 70 year old eyes = 1" group at 100 yards. I'll take it.

You'll not go wrong with either TVM or Mr. Curtis.

If you are truly having a custom stock made, there are a whole bunch of measurements that can be incorporated to make it truly YOUR rifle. I'll go through a few of them;
The distance from your cheek weld to the center of your eye socket in your preferred shooting position. With a rifle it's shot with the head more upright (in standing and kneeling position) and laid down more in prone. This will also contribute to your cast-off. You will have the best balance (and shoot best) with your head upright rather than leaned over. This measurement needs to be taken where your cheek weld naturally falls. With modern target guns the comb is parallel with the bore, so it's of lesser concern. With a sporting gun it angles upward from the heel of the butt toward the breech, and so the drop at the comb will move depending on where on it your cheek naturally falls. Everybody mounts the gun differently, so this is very much an individual thing. Clothing worn will affect where your cheek falls too.

If the gun is shot off the shoulder then you will need more cast off than if it is shot from the crook in your shoulder and bicep.

If you tend to shoot with your non support elbow up that will translate to a bit of toe-out with the toe of the stock. Shotguns tend to be shot that way. If you normally shoot with that elbow locked down, then you will probably need a few degrees of toe in. Everybody is a little different that way.

Length of pull gets a lot of attention, but with rifles we tend to adjust our shooting position to the gun better than with shotguns, because rifles are aimed, and shotguns are pointed and our bodies are moving during our swing. In standing and kneeling position you will want a shorter LOP than in prone.

For most average sized shooters with average outdoor clothing, a LOP between 13 1/4" and 14 1/4" will work (standing position), but how you hold the gun with your trigger hand also affects things. Trigger guards with lots of spurs on them contribute to a more vertical hand position than those without. A deeper hook to the butt plate will also contribute to a deeper seating of the butt than a flatter "shotgun" butt.

Many people advocate measuring from the crook in your elbow to the pad of your (crooked) trigger finger pad, as you normally shoot, but as you can see, that measurement (as to what LOP is "correct" for you) can be significantly affected by the discussion of the many points above.

One of the best ways to determine all of this is to either make (or gain access to) a "try gun". The premium British gun makers in London use them extensively to create stocks for their customers. Try guns allow the shooting coach to make a myriad of adjustments (regarding the above) until their client is consistently shooting where they are aiming. Another version of this is one of the infinitely adjustable target guns, as is used in unlimited precision target shooting.

A "poor man's" version of this can also be made with plywood, and provide fundamental adjustment axis to adjust for LOP, drop at comb, and toe-in / toe-out. Just cut out the shape with a saber saw, and cut some slots to put bolts with wing nuts on them, and make the adjustments until it feels "just right".

It's a long slow process, but in the end you will be happier for having done it.

Hope that helps a little. Sorry for the long post, but there's a lot going on here.

Good post.

One thing I have to caution most folks (but not all) who are used to modern guns and their LOP measurements is that using an LOP and drop at cheek and heel of the stock from a modern gun can be VERY different than on a ML rifle, at least the way it seems a lot of folks figure the LOP.

The reason for this is many modern guns have straighter stocks because the sights are higher up off the receiver and barrel.

ML sights are right on top of the barrel and are "lower" in relationship to the bore and where the barrel lays compared to modern guns. So to get a ML stock to fit offhand with an upright head/face, you often have to have more drop in the stock. This can also throw off the LOP.

For example, an M1 Garand LOP is about 13 1/8 inch long and to some folks that is a "long" length of pull. Recently I shouldered and tried the fit of a rifle built from a Jim Chambers "English Gentleman's Sporting Rifle" kit. It has the following dimensions advertised.

â—¾Trigger Pull: 13 1/2"
â—¾Drop At Heel: 2 3/4"
â—¾Butt Width: 2 1/8"
â—¾Drop At Comb: 1 1/2"

Now, even though the LOP is at least 3/8" LONGER than the M1 Garand, the rifle feels shorter in LOP than the M1.

So what I suggest is try ML rifles in the style one likes, rather than modern rifles, to see what you prefer for LOP and other dimensions.

Gus

the one I am building now is from TVM and I am happy with them,,,,,,,,,

I was high bidder on an on-line auction. the description was wrong, photos were not great but I saw a siler lock so I bid 160.00. Buyers premium and shipping added another 50.00. When it arrived I was shocked, it was a M Avance early virginia rifle in .45 cal.I have been hunting almost daily with this sweet rifle for a month. The lop is also perfect for me. Great rifle, great shooter,very good quality.
Nit Wit

I have 2 Early Lancasters from TVM. One in .50 & one in .32

Love them both. Great company to deal with. Top notch quality. Good prices.

Good golly . . . $210 . . . any rifle built by TVM's Matt Advance is worth at least $1300.

Handsome well-made guns that tend to be a little on the heavy side in stock configuration. Absolutely opt for the swamped barrel in a rifle, especially if your barrel will be 38 or more inches.

I have a TVM fowler. It's very well-made, but heavier than several other custom and semi-custom fowlers I have. It is more nose-heavy than some of my other fowlers. In their price range, the TVM is an outstanding option.

For something truly, fully custom I would contract with an individual, higher-end builder. But that's a different price range than we are discussing here.

TVM has been very responsive to the limited inquiries I've put into them. Their website is also pretty good and will give you an idea of their products, which is not true of all muzzle loading vendors.

Edit: and $210 for a TVM rifle is a "once in a blue moon" type of deal. Well done.

OH MY, I need to go there!

Just received notice that my TVM Southern ships Monday. It has been close to a year since I ordered it. Swamped bbl and nice wood. Cost me around 1800.

Monday?

Waiting is the hard part. I'm sure you will enjoy when it arrives.

Well if it really ships on Monday it wont be this coming Monday. Hope for Tuesday!

Very nice. I have a Southern ordered (end of March) guess I will be waiting a lot longer 🙁 Will be worth it now that I have seen yours.

Nice rifle I’ve been eyeing the southern rifle for awhile now ,what caliber is it?

I’m having the poor boy in a steel finish, with premium maple in a .36 caliber.
I did however upgrade some things like the lock an a swamped barrel etc.🙂

Ordered my S. Mountain in March, lady said should be about November for build, I can't stand to wait a year. Yours looks beautiful, hope you really enjoy it.

I got her Monday. Yep, beautiful. They did a great job packing it.

Alamosa said:

Ordered my S. Mountain in March, lady said should be about November for build, I can't stand to wait a year. Yours looks beautiful, hope you really enjoy it.

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If you can't stand to wait a year, try building one yourself. You'll learn that a year isn't that long when it's up to you to supply the labor. :rotf: