54ball
62 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2004
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My reenacting friend is a English teacher. We make long trips and discuss many things. We were discussing things like the "hero's journey" history, and historical movies.
We discussed how lately historical based movies result to these over the top villains. In a sense it's an insult to the audience's intelligence. It's almost like force feeding. The villain has to commit a horrible atrocity. Before the climax the villain some how obtains near super human power, loses all humanity and become a "Boss" that must be defeated in a Matrix/Video game like fight scene.
Bear with me on this....
I was watching a history program about the Holocaust. A survivor from a camp had this to say about a SS man of whom he was his valet...
Villains/Antagonists done wrong...
Tom Hardy as John Fitzgerald The Revenant
Leaving poor Glass as a helpless invalid to die in the wilderness is not enough. No...Fitzgerald has to commit a ruthless horrible act that demands righteous retribution. Hardy's Fitzgerald goes over the top and by the climax becomes a superhuman Boss that must be defeated in a epic struggle.
This robs the audience of the moral conflict that Fitzgerald may have been right. Too, the anger of the slight of being left may have given Glass the means to survive.
Instead of exploring this, the audience is left watching a Boss struggle video game with flintlocks. One that they are not playing.
Jason Issacs Col. Tavington The Patriot
A few unfortunate short minutes destroys this character and makes what could have been a very good historical movie into a insulting farce.
The SS Einzengroupen style burning of the Church is a insult that for me makes the film near unwatchable. This was South Carolina in 1780 involving Tory and British Troops not Lidice Czechoslovakia in 1942 involving Nazis. The insult is just too great.
It is no secret that Tavington is Tarleton. So they should have done Tarleton. A ruthless murderer who give no quarter....
The town scene.... instead he hangs the men in front of the women the Tory and British troops then pillage and rape. As Gabriel's Bride meets her fate off screen...Tavington remarks smugly to the shocked American Tory officer " It seems we have lost control of our men." That would be based on some fact. Instead we get "Fire the Church"
No.....They went full Nazi instead.
Imagine too that instead of the Boss fight, Tavington is wounded by Martin with the soldier bullet but survives. We see him to begin to unravel.
After Yorktown we see him in the streets of Yorktown pulled from his horse as it is taken by a street person...shamed stripped of all dignity pelted with rotten fruit and manure....you know kind of based on what happened to Tarleton.
Villains Done Right
Wes Studi Maugua The Last of the Mohicans 1992
Maugua is not over the top. Maugua has some of our sympathy and understanding. His gentle hand gesturing to save the girl is a moment. We still enjoy the final fight but it's not the over the top Boss fight.
Henry Brandon Chief Scar The Searchers 1956
While Chief Scar is not really a very developed character, in my opinion he is developed enough since the story is told from an American point of view. He is not evil but rather he what he is ...A Comanche War Chief.
Who we really struggle with is Wayne and to a lesser extent Jeffery Hunter. Both of whom are very capable of cruelty.
John Carridine Caldwell Drums along the Mohawk 1939
Carridine has the build, face and voice of a villain. He has charisma in the tavern scenes and his brief spots in the film are enjoyable.
I like what Ford does with the Indians here. When the Mrs McKlenner orders the Indian Warriors to remove her bed from her burning home and they try to comply...It adds a sense of humanity and realism that many may miss.
The chase scene is iconic.
We discussed how lately historical based movies result to these over the top villains. In a sense it's an insult to the audience's intelligence. It's almost like force feeding. The villain has to commit a horrible atrocity. Before the climax the villain some how obtains near super human power, loses all humanity and become a "Boss" that must be defeated in a Matrix/Video game like fight scene.
Bear with me on this....
I was watching a history program about the Holocaust. A survivor from a camp had this to say about a SS man of whom he was his valet...
This is real...there is lot to the above quote. Despicable villain yes,...but still a man.the valet said:This man was nothing, nothing! I helped him dress. His trousers his boots his tunic. As he buttoned his tunic and snapped that cap upon his head, then he became a monster!
Villains/Antagonists done wrong...
Tom Hardy as John Fitzgerald The Revenant
Leaving poor Glass as a helpless invalid to die in the wilderness is not enough. No...Fitzgerald has to commit a ruthless horrible act that demands righteous retribution. Hardy's Fitzgerald goes over the top and by the climax becomes a superhuman Boss that must be defeated in a epic struggle.
This robs the audience of the moral conflict that Fitzgerald may have been right. Too, the anger of the slight of being left may have given Glass the means to survive.
Instead of exploring this, the audience is left watching a Boss struggle video game with flintlocks. One that they are not playing.
Jason Issacs Col. Tavington The Patriot
A few unfortunate short minutes destroys this character and makes what could have been a very good historical movie into a insulting farce.
The SS Einzengroupen style burning of the Church is a insult that for me makes the film near unwatchable. This was South Carolina in 1780 involving Tory and British Troops not Lidice Czechoslovakia in 1942 involving Nazis. The insult is just too great.
It is no secret that Tavington is Tarleton. So they should have done Tarleton. A ruthless murderer who give no quarter....
The town scene.... instead he hangs the men in front of the women the Tory and British troops then pillage and rape. As Gabriel's Bride meets her fate off screen...Tavington remarks smugly to the shocked American Tory officer " It seems we have lost control of our men." That would be based on some fact. Instead we get "Fire the Church"
No.....They went full Nazi instead.
Imagine too that instead of the Boss fight, Tavington is wounded by Martin with the soldier bullet but survives. We see him to begin to unravel.
After Yorktown we see him in the streets of Yorktown pulled from his horse as it is taken by a street person...shamed stripped of all dignity pelted with rotten fruit and manure....you know kind of based on what happened to Tarleton.
Villains Done Right
Wes Studi Maugua The Last of the Mohicans 1992
Maugua is not over the top. Maugua has some of our sympathy and understanding. His gentle hand gesturing to save the girl is a moment. We still enjoy the final fight but it's not the over the top Boss fight.
Henry Brandon Chief Scar The Searchers 1956
While Chief Scar is not really a very developed character, in my opinion he is developed enough since the story is told from an American point of view. He is not evil but rather he what he is ...A Comanche War Chief.
Who we really struggle with is Wayne and to a lesser extent Jeffery Hunter. Both of whom are very capable of cruelty.
John Carridine Caldwell Drums along the Mohawk 1939
Carridine has the build, face and voice of a villain. He has charisma in the tavern scenes and his brief spots in the film are enjoyable.
I like what Ford does with the Indians here. When the Mrs McKlenner orders the Indian Warriors to remove her bed from her burning home and they try to comply...It adds a sense of humanity and realism that many may miss.
The chase scene is iconic.