To much is made of short arbors

[Ballshooter]

I can clean the chambers thoroughly from the muzzle. I don’t always clean without disassembling but if I’m pressed for time I do so often enough that I trust my method. Regardless of that, I remove the nipples every year or so. Currently I have at least 16 percussion Colts and Colt replicas, two Remington Navies, one Remington Army. I defy anyone to find rust or corrosion in or on any of them. Do what works for you, not what “everyone else“ says you must do.

I definitely would clean that way out in the woods and I can see doing that if you are not storing it for a length of time. Heck I shoot so much you maybe on to something I may add.

 

[dickydalton]

Yes, that's true but I'd put mine up against any $1,000.00 + revolver.

You are right, hand fitting is still king!!

Mike

I never got near $1,000 for any of my 2nd Generation Colts and Mike's charges together. And reading the drivel that one fool posts on here is dreadful. If I didn't know better he'd be in Congress!

 

[Ballshooter]

Hey, at least everyone got their post count up...hahahahah

 

[SDSmlf]

I never got near $1,000 for any of my 2nd Generation Colts and Mike's charges together. And reading the drivel that one fool posts on here is dreadful. If I didn't know better he'd be in Congress!

Dribble (think baby’s bib), not drivel, is what I believe the OP started with.

 

[dickydalton]

Dribble (think baby’s bib), not drivel, is what I believe the OP started with.

Well, drivel is what that guy spouts!

 

[M. De Land]

This is exactly the explanation one would give that doesn't understand the dynamics of the barrel pulled with great tension against the end of the arbor. Without the contact and tension, the end of the arbor could (and will) be pulled and torn off. The fact that static force is constantly pulling against the end of the arbor is what keeps the arbor from separation. If there is space between the end of the arbor and the bottom of the arbor hole (space for separation to happen) separation can and will happen.
For this reason, an Uberti 1860 Army can maintain it's build tolerances and handle a steady diet of 45acp +p ammo.

It's in fact, a BRILLIANT design that works perfectly if executed correctly.

So technically, since the wedge actually mates the barrel and the arbor together ( as a single unit), the barrel IS screwed into the frame ( since the arbor is screwed into the frame) and of course the cylinder is mounted between the two . . .

Mike

That's a great theory that doesn't hold much water in light of the thousands of short arbor guns in use since the 60s that have not blown the ends of their arbors off. Odd how every one that doesn't agree with your line of thinking has no understanding of strength dynamics and that from a guy who insists open frame guns are as strong as solid frame guns !
Drilling and threading arbor slot ends for a wedge adjustment screw weakens them though.
The arbor and it's well in the barrel will never become a single unit no matter how hard you press them together, The joint will remain and only the wedge ( a separate part) will keep them connected.

 

[Pete453]

So you never take the nipples out or clean the cylinder cambers thoroughly ?

I rarely take the nipples out. When I put them in I put grease on them and screw them in. I've been using white lithium grease or wheel bearing grease, either works fine. I clean with hot water out of the faucet, no soap. The grease stays put, fouling can't get in.

 

[M. De Land]

Yep arbor holds the barrel , cylinder and wedge...as you fire your hammer pushes the cylinder against the barrel and forces the barrel to move forward. Your cylinder gap has now changed if you think it didn't take a measurement before and after. With a short arbor this will always happen pretty simple even a cave man can understand.
The wedge will not fit tight I guarantee it unless you shim the wedge but then all your doing is raising the POI and changing the cylinder gap. I don't care if others want to shoot a short arbor all it does is beat the parts a slow death. I would also think after time miss fires will be more common. It's an open top design WHY NOT MAKE IT MORE SOLD? There is no way a short arbor has a tight fitting wedge and no way to accurately have the same gun every time you shoot or remove and put back the barrel. Some get the concept and some don't and that's okay do what you want nobody is trying to say your wrong.

I don't shim wedges or drill and tap the arbor slot for adjustment screws as there is precious little material as it is in this area to check barrel separation.
I mill new wedges of tools steel ,heat treat them and fit them far closer than any that come from the factory.
This is the strongest method available to insure against barrel separation.

 

[Flint1]

I have been a Remington shooter for many years and just recently bought some reproduction Colts. I did drop a flat washer down the arbor slot of my 2 Dragoons. I have not had a chance to fire them yet, either before or after placing the washers, and I later bought some Prussian Blue to check them--still have not disassembled them for that yet. I know this is a discussion on arbor length, but reading all this I have a disassembly question. Does the wedge have to be completely removed to remove the barrel and cylinder? It seems like it may not, but with both my Dragoons I had a problem with the wedge apparently barely in and was afraid to try and force anything, so I removed the screw and wedge completely.

 

[M. De Land]

I have been a Remington shooter for many years and just recently bought some reproduction Colts. I did drop a flat washer down the arbor slot of my 2 Dragoons. I have not had a chance to fire them yet, either before or after placing the washers, and I later bought some Prussian Blue to check them--still have not disassembled them for that yet. I know this is a discussion on arbor length, but reading all this I have a disassembly question. Does the wedge have to be completely removed to remove the barrel and cylinder? It seems like it may not, but with both my Dragoons I had a problem with the wedge apparently barely in and was afraid to try and force anything, so I removed the screw and wedge completely.

Generally the wedge can remain in the barrel hung from the keep screw but not always depending on how they were fit.

 

[M. De Land]

Well, drivel is what that guy spouts!

Well Dicky my lad, stop reading all this dribble that is so inferior to your great intellect and knowledge ! Kinda got you hooked doesn't it? Fish On!!!!!!!!

 

[45D]

That's a great theory that doesn't hold much water in light of the thousands of short arbor guns in use since the 60s that have not blown the ends of their arbors off. Odd how every one that doesn't agree with your line of thinking has no understanding of strength dynamics and that from a guy who insists open frame guns are as strong as solid frame guns !
Drilling and threading arbor slot ends for a wedge adjustment screw weakens them though.
The arbor and it's well in the barrel will never become a single unit no matter how hard you press them together, The joint will remain and only the wedge ( a separate part) will keep them connected.

That "great theory" allows a jacketed 220gr bullet to hit the forcing cone with 23K psi behind it.
The results after 1,000 rounds (almost all using jacketed) is no damage whatsoever to the wedge, no damage to the wedge slot in the arbor, no damage to the wedge slot in the barrel, the endshake set remains as set. Same scenario with Dragoons. Lots of top strap revolvers can't do that. ( what is your disconnect here?) My "theory" isn't "theory " at all, it's the brilliant design of men from 180 yrs. ago. A design that apparently is rather sophisticated for some today.

Shooting Walkers with 60gr charges and soft lead balls / conicals didn't fare too well with a short arbor. It needed a new wedge almost after every outing. Today, Walkers set up as designed can handle full loads of triple 7 with ball or conicals. That’s not opinion or theory - that's fact.

Mike

 

[45D]

I don't shim wedges or drill and tap the arbor slot for adjustment screws as there is precious little material as it is in this area to check barrel separation.
I mill new wedges of tools steel ,heat treat them and fit them far closer than any that come from the factory.
This is the strongest method available to insure against barrel separation.

Funny how my factory wedges work just fine in a properly set up revolver. No need for a "tool steel" super wedge.
I believe you're correct with your "tool steel" wedge in your particular revolvers. They NEED it!! I don't think they would be able to handle what mine do with their "conventional" set up ( there's too much movement in yours!!).

Mike

 

[45D]

That's a great theory that doesn't hold much water in light of the thousands of short arbor guns in use since the 60s that have not blown the ends of their arbors off.

That's an easy question to ask from someone who can't confirm - how many are actually in use, what charges are used, how many wedges have been replaced, how many arbors have been replaced . . . Nice try.

Odd how every one that doesn't agree with your line of thinking has no understanding of strength dynamics and that from a guy who insists open frame guns are as strong as solid frame guns !

Again, I've already proven that. I prove that every time I go to the range.

Drilling and threading arbor slot ends for a wedge adjustment screw weakens them though.

Haven't seen any evidence of that at all. That "drilled and threaded " hole is filled in with a hardened flat faced set screw . . . that contacts the wedge . . . which transfers the tension to the arbor end and imparting the full diameter ( of the arbor end) contact with the barrel.
No failures to date with 100's done.
Apparently, it works.

Mike

 

[Tyler L]

Drilling and threading arbor slot ends for a wedge adjustment screw weakens them though.

How? As I wrote last time this came up, the thinnest section of the arbor is at the wedge cutout. Adding a 1/4-28 thread at the end doesn't change that. If the arbor is going to fail, it'll fail at the cutout whether it's been threaded or not. Now, if someone used a 3/8" thread maybe you would have a point, but who would do that?

The arbor and it's well in the barrel will never become a single unit no matter how hard you press them together, The joint will remain and only the wedge ( a separate part) will keep them connected.

I don't recall anyone asserting the barrel and arbor will become a single unit. The goal is simply to get rid of the clearance that allows the barrel to move backward toward the cylinder.

 

[French Colonial]

How? As I wrote last time this came up, the thinnest section of the arbor is at the wedge cutout. Adding a 1/4-28 thread at the end doesn't change that. If the arbor is going to fail, it'll fail at the cutout whether it's been threaded or not. Now, if someone used a 3/8" thread maybe you would have a point, but who would do that?


I don't recall anyone asserting the barrel and arbor will become a single unit. The goal is simply to get rid of the clearance that allows the barrel to move backward toward the cylinder.

I realize upon firing the barrel moves forward stopped by the wedge.

Please explain what moves the barrel backward.

 

[Tyler L]

I realize upon firing the barrel moves forward stopped by the wedge.

Please explain what moves the barrel backward.

Inserting the wedge for one, and also recoil. The first is why Mr. De Land was talking about using feeler gauges to set the clearance. The second is why some guns beat up their wedges, don't hold point of aim, don't hold cylinder clearance, etc.

 

[Relic shooter]

and mine was only to yours re: cylinder binding from powder fouling… The Remington shooters have little choice but to pull the pin and wipe it too at some point… If some manufacturer uninterested in HC would only improve the design with the addition of a cylinder bushing they’d have nearly the perfect c&b revolver, aside from the grip frame and the obvious aesthetic deficiencies of course.

BC in regard to cylinder binding on 58 Remingtons, years ago I had an original that had the arbor grooved by the owner or a frontier gunsmith to hold lube & that cured the bind issue when I shot it.
As I recall a few months ago 45D posted pictures on the forum on how he does it on customers Remingtons he tunes, maybe can pull up his past postings ?
Relic shooter

 

[Pete453]

Funny how my factory wedges work just fine in a properly set up revolver. No need for a "tool steel" super wedge.
I believe you're correct with your "tool steel" wedge in your particular revolvers. They NEED it!! I don't think they would be able to handle what mine do with their "conventional" set up ( there's too much movement in yours!!).

Mike

This is a good point. When the gun is loose and pounds wedges, the wedge is the weak link. So, with a hardened wedge, what becomes the weak link now? The end of the arbor, maybe?

 

[hawkeye2]

This is a good point. When the gun is loose and pounds wedges, the wedge is the weak link. So, with a hardened wedge, what becomes the weak link now? The end of the arbor, maybe?

The weak link would be the bearing surfaces at the ends of the slots in the arbor and barrel lug. They would be battered by the hardened wedge.