Bridled frizzen locks

[M. De Land]

Were colonial (American built) locks ever or often fitted with bridled frizzens?

 

[dave_person]

Yes. Moreover, there were very few American built locks. The vast majority on colonial guns were imported from England, Germany, Holland, and France.

dave

 

[M. De Land]

Thanks Dave! I was trying to remember if the gun Guzzler built on video while at Williamsburg had a bridle or not then curiosity made me ask the question. I would think most bridles would be cast into the lock plate but perhaps not. It sure would be a job to file away that much metal if made integral.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
On the lock that Wallace built I believe the pan and bolster were separate from the plate like a Siler today. The plate and pan with or without bridle could then be heated and swedged in a form.

dave

 

[M. De Land]

Anxious to get the kit and see what I got for wood and to take apart the lock and see what I have for fit, finish and function. Like to have it ready for our Territorials in June! Missed it last year because of work but make it most years for at least part of the four day shoot.

 

[shane a gress]

Explain a bridled frizzen, please.

 

[rich pierce]

On a bridled frizzen there is an arm attached to the pan which sandwiches the frizzen pivot between that arm and the lockplate just like a Siler, Chambers Late Ketland, Chambers Round Faced lock, L&R Durs Egg or Manton or whatever. Examples of unbridled frizzen locks include the Chambers early Germanic, one version of the Chambers Early Ketland lock, the Davis early Colonial Round Faced lock, the large Davis early Germanic lock. A headed screw is all that is pinning the frizzen to the lockplate. No sandwich.

 

[Artificer]

During the 18th century on locks in use in the American Colonies, there were three main types of locks.

1. “No Bridle” Locks. Meaning this kind of lock did not have even a single Bridle over the Tumbler. These were the earliest and cheapest locks made. Normally used on Trade Gun Locks. Scroll down in this link to the two pictures of the Blair marked lock under “No exterior or interior bridle puts this lock in the lower end of quality and price but it is still nicely engraved.”

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/antique_gun_locks.htm


2. “Single Bridle Locks.” This type of lock had a Bridle over the Tumbler, but did not have the “Pan Bridle” or extension forward of the pan, meant to better support/reinforce the working of the Frizzen Screw. Even though the first lock in the link above was a High Quality German lock, it did not have the “Pan Bridle” or extension forward of the Pan to support the screw, though it does have a Bridle over the Tumbler. So it could well have been used on a gun before the Pan Bridle became more common.

Also, scroll down to the pictures marked, “This lock is included as an example of the typical trade quality lock imported to the colonies prior to the Revolution. It is a bit different from most because the pan is not integral to the plate as most English locks of the period were” and “Flat faced English trade quality lock signed Blair. (ca. 1775-1785)” for more examples of “Single Bridle Locks.”

The following link shows an Early P 1730 “Single Bridle” Lock without a Pan Bridle.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/31/12/a8/3112a8c027f109fab4dd5e91ac2a8d2f.jpg

3. “Double Bridle Locks.” This kind of lock was found on Middle to the Best Quality locks as it had both the Bridle over the Tumbler and the “Pan Bridle.” The Durrs Egg lock in the first link is a very late 18th century lock of high quality. Though the Pan Bridle is well formed/filed/shaped, it is there to support the Frizzen Screw.

This link shows just a lock plate with a hole through the “Pan Bridle” and Frizzen, making it a “Double Bridle Lock.”

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/imgPart/lock/lock-bess-46-pl_1.jpg

Hope this helps.

Gus

 

[Stophel]

There are also locks that have the internal bridle for the tumbler, but without the branch reaching back to the sear screw. I have pictures of a Ketland lock, ca. 1770-1800 that is like this, and if I recall correctly (and I may be wrong), some of the earlier French gunlocks in Canada also had the "half bridle" on the tumbler...

 

[Artificer]

There are also locks that have the internal bridle for the tumbler, but without the branch reaching back to the sear screw. I have pictures of a Ketland lock, ca. 1770-1800 that is like this, and if I recall correctly (and I may be wrong), some of the earlier French gunlocks in Canada also had the "half bridle" on the tumbler...

Good point! Forgot to mention them.

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

It's also interesting to note that as late as the 1830's there were "trade" rifles being made with flint locks not having a bridled pan. Previously to seeing photos of an extant rifle with such a lock, I thought that by 1800 all flint locks were with bridled pans.

LD

 

[FlinterNick]

Were colonial (American built) locks ever or often fitted with bridled frizzens?

some were and some were not. it came down to cost. A double bridle lock carried a higher price. Some locks had bridles welded on (very complicated).

F&I war guns mostly didn't have bridled frizzes, however they did use a large pivoted screw.

 

[Stumpkiller]

My Lehigh has a Chambers Early Germanic unbridled lock. Showing no signs of loosening up.

 

[Artificer]

some were and some were not. it came down to cost. A double bridle lock carried a higher price. Some locks had bridles welded on (very complicated).

F&I war guns mostly didn't have bridled frizzes, however they did use a large pivoted screw.

Nicholas,

Please don't think I'm trying to pick on you, but that is a bit too much of a generalization. British and French Military Firelocks had double bridle locks on many, if not most of their newer made Firelocks by then. British Ordnance had changed to double bridle locks as per the P1740 locks. Civilian medium to high quality locks had changed to mostly double bridle locks by the FIW as well.

It is true that Trade Gun locks and low quality locks continued to be made with no Pan Bridle during and later than the FIW, though. Also, it seems that German locks didn't change over as quickly to Pan Bridles as Britain or France, so you still see some Single Bridle locks from them during that period.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

Nicholas,

Please don't think I'm trying to pick on you, but that is a bit too much of a generalization. British and French Military Firelocks had double bridle locks on many, if not most of their newer made Firelocks by then. British Ordnance had changed to double bridle locks as per the P1740 locks. Civilian medium to high quality locks had changed to mostly double bridle locks by the FIW as well.

It is true that Trade Gun locks and low quality locks continued to be made with no Pan Bridle during and later than the FIW, though. Also, it seems that German locks didn't change over as quickly to Pan Bridles as Britain or France, so you still see some Single Bridle locks from them during that period.

Gus

You can pick on me Gus, I've got thick skin.

I didn't get into too many details, I don't text write well from a cellphone, I wanted to participate in this discussion from a hospital today.

I agree with your statements, most French and British musket locks were double bridled after 1720/30 for the military locks. I was referring mostly to commercial locks by Ketland, Mortimer, and other non-government contractors.

French military 1746 muskets actually had the frizzed bridles removed as a cost saving measure (the prior pattern 1728 musket had a frizzen bridle), earlier guns used a type of frizzen bridle that connected downward to the frizzed screw, this of course was useless and provided zero practical benefit to the functions of the lock. The French then added the frizzen bridle back to the 1754 musket.

The British started using double bridled locks around 1730; however if the older locks were still serviceable then they would use them on restocked muskets.... this of course is a rarity. Most of those larger Brown Bess Locks were not in good shape by 1730 and with integral pans were difficult to service.

One major flaw with British muskets I could never understand was why use an integral pan, and not a detachable plan? this method allowed the French Charleville's to be continuously upgraded for use almost to the 1850's. Brown Bess conversions and upgrades were sloppy and never very well designed.

Civilian guns were often made with surplus parts from older guns to save money. Kinda like comparable to a used car of today.

Certain PA rifles were made with single bridle locks, such as earlier Jaegers and Edward Marshal rifles. These guns were also of course, very expense and there would have been fewer of them. Many of the trade muskets around 1730/40 were made with unbridled frizzens, many later ones were.

Some German locks had detachable pans, where a new pan with a frizzen bridle was replaced to fit. British locks by Powell and Lott were unbridled prior to the 1750's, you see these locks on earlier fowlers and Indian Trade Muskets.

 

[Artificer]

One major flaw with British muskets I could never understand was why use an integral pan, and not a detachable plan? this method allowed the French Charleville's to be continuously upgraded for use almost to the 1850's. Brown Bess conversions and upgrades were sloppy and never very well designed.

The more I have studied the 18th century British Ordnance Department, the more I shake my head sometimes at things they would spend money for that didn't really need it and in other cases were downright cheap when they should not have been.

Since the British only considered the Service Life of an 18th century Military Musket to be 8 - 12 years, I imagine that's why they didn't spend the extra money on detachable pans, but I can't document that.

Of course I'm not sure if it is still this way today, but on two trips to the UK and visiting Warwick Castle on both trips, I was very surprised to find so many Single Bridle Flintlock Sporting Guns on display in their Armoury. (I was at first disappointed to find very little Medieval Period weaponry, but this made up for it.) Most those were high quality guns of the 1720's and 30's.

Gus

P.S. On a personal note, I hope there is nothing seriously wrong with you in hospital.

 

[FlinterNick]

The more I have studied the 18th century British Ordnance Department, the more I shake my head sometimes at things they would spend money for that didn't really need it and in other cases were downright cheap when they should not have been.

Since the British only considered the Service Life of an 18th century Military Musket to be 8 - 12 years, I imagine that's why they didn't spend the extra money on detachable pans, but I can't document that.

Of course I'm not sure if it is still this way today, but on two trips to the UK and visiting Warwick Castle on both trips, I was very surprised to find so many Single Bridle Flintlock Sporting Guns on display in their Armoury. (I was at first disappointed to find very little Medieval Period weaponry, but this made up for it.) Most those were high quality guns of the 1720's and 30's.

Gus

P.S. On a personal note, I hope there is nothing seriously wrong with you in hospital.

Thanks Gus I’m here for a family member. Thanks for the concerns.

I agree 100% the Brown Bess wasn’t exactly a cheap musket with ornate fittings and tight parts inletting.

Ironically the smaller Brown Bess officer fusils were much more expensive due to their personalized designs.

The locks for better or worse are good quality on any pattern.

The India muskets were designed to be cheap the biggest savings was the wood grade; many India pattern guns were made with exotic woods; oak, teak and acacia and they still were not cheap to produce due to inletting costs.

 

[M. De Land]

I picked up a cheap .45 caliber flint pistol from a friend for $20.00 a couple years back thinking it would probably not be much but fun to fix up and learn about flint shooting. I fixed the cracked stock, re-browned the barrel, forged the trigger to a better shape, tuned the trigger pull and milled out a new front sight. The gun was made in Japan by Muroku which I have heard make lousy flint pistols.
I ordered some flints from TOTW and noticed right off the lock worked perfectly with no tuning at all! Huh, perhaps the old girl had some promise after all! The bore had a few lightly rusted spots but cleaned up well with some steel wool and bore solvent.
I tested it for accuracy and it shot patched balls fine out to the 50 yard line. The old derelict was starting to grow on me and I wound up using it in a territorial match at 50 yards. I didn't win but realized it wasn't the guns fault in the least.
Curious about the locks construction after the resent discussion of bridle locks I took it apart and found it is in fact a double bridled lock.
The curious thing about the gun is the vent had no liner and is drilled at about a 30 degree angle forward so as not to penetrate the breech plug. This should be interesting to line when the vent finally erodes out in the barrel wall!