• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Yet Another Flint Discussion

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

uncrichie

40 Cal.
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Messages
203
Reaction score
1
I've often read on this forum about proper placement of and the amount of shots per flint. I'm having a hard time understanding a flint that must be almost touching the frizzen at half cock and also achieving so many shots per flint. How is it possible for the flint not to be shrinking to the point of still being that close to the flint and lasting for so many (50-60) shots?

Do you guys keep moving the flint forward in the jaws to make up for the shrinking flint or are you not loosing any length of the flint, like I am?

I have a T/C Hawken with new designed hammer/cock, a newer frizzen that moves easily and use Fuller english flints. The flints I use are a length that requires me to notch the rear of the leather to seat it right against the cock screw to just miss the frizzen at half cock.

Even with starting with a flint at this full of length it still diminishes to being too short and very dull after 20-25 shots. I can knap it alittle to get a few more shots but it's hit and miss at that point for dependable ignition.

I've read all the tips and tricks and still don't get the amount of shots that alot of people report here. Is it possible that I 'm having the bad luck of the draw or are there others out there having the same issues after doing all the usual fixes?

For you guys that have several of the T/C's are you lucky with long flint life on all of them or just some of them. I hate rehashing all this info but I feel left out with so short of flint life. Kurt.
 
A lot of things can contribute to flint life, but you deffinitely have to move the flint forward as it chips itself away. Other things that might deminish shots per flint is the strength of the frizzen spring. I've had to lighten the frizzen springs on a couple of my locks so that the frizzen opened easily.

There's more to it, but I'll let the more experienced shooters chime in here.
 
How are you lightening/weakening the frizzen spring? I've decreased the strength of sear springs by taking metal off the side dimension. Are you doing it the same way? I don't think mine is toooo strong but that could always be a possibility.

Also, I assume you measure the weight of the frizzen as you go? Is that measurement taken at the tip of the frizzen or where the flint strikes the frizzen and what would that ideal weight be? Tnx. Kurt.
 
I'll tell you how I did it, but I'm told I shouldn't have done it this way. I took a vice grip and compressed the spring slowly by turning the knob on the bottom of the grip and then would check the strength of the spring after every quarter turn. I'm told that cold bending a spring is inviting disaster....but I got away with it. In the future, I'll be heating them up with a propane torch before compressing them.
I weakened the spring to the point where I could open the frizzen with very little finger pressure. One of my rifles is a Pedersoli Frontier rifle which already has a STRONG mainspring and a strong frizzen spring to boot. Weakening the frizzen spring has contributed to flint life on the rifle for sure.
 
Personally, I don't think anything to do with the frizzen on TC's redesigned locks needs to be "re-engineered" by its owner, but that's just me...I've never tinkered with a single frizzen spring across several flintlocks and I get excellent flint life on all of them.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned about the black english flints that can affect the life is how thin and flat the flint it.

If it's a flat, very thin, very sharp flint I may get 80-100 shots out of it because as the edge wears back I still have a thin material which continues to easily knapp to a sharp edge and I just keep moving the flint forward every 20 shots or so to maintain that "all but touching the frizzen" relationship;

But if it's a thick 'humpback' flint, the edge will be sharp but after a little use and a knapp or two, you will be back into the thick body of the flint as it starts to rise up to humpback and you can only knapp it so much from that point on...and flint life will be much shorter like what you're getting.

However, I've extended the life of the humpbacks that I have by using a "diamond cutter grinding wheel" in my Dremel tool, to quickly grind off that hump and get the flints flatter.
I also use the wheel to restore flints after a 50 shot range session to grind down some more material on both sides of the front to make a thin edge again and get another 20-30 shots or so.

Every time I clean a Flintlock, it includes removing the lock, removing the frizzen and frizzen pivot screw, completely cleaning & lubing the top of the frizzen spring, the frizzen bridle pivots, the frizzen pivot hole area, and the frizzen screw...but I've never modified any frizzen parts.

So IMHO, at least with T/C's redesigned locks, the variable in all this is the flint...not only is every new flint different from the one you just used, but the dimensions and characteristics of the new flint you just installed begins changing immediately from the first time you drop the hammer and for every hammer drop thereafter. So for me, my highest priority is trying to manage the constantly changing condition of the flint...and keeping the entire frizzen pivot area showroom clean & lubed after every use.

IMO, the locks work fine and don't need to be re-engineered...T/C already did all that and this time they got it right...others mileage may vary of course...
 
I'd like to thank everyone for their suggestions including the private messages sent.

RB, I must admit that a large majority of the flints I have are similar to the ones you mentioned with the humpbacks. They land up having a very blunt nose to them when they shorten. I have used the suggested diamond wheel to dress down a flint hump so it fits better in the jaws but haven't thought about using it to generally thin down the body portion or for reshaping the two sides.

Maybe I'll try thinning some of them before addressing the lock and see if I get more shots that way. Just so I have this correct, you also grind the bottom as well as the top when thinning them? What about the top slant down to the nose, do you knap or grind that also? Kurt.
 
RB, could you do me a favor when you get time. Could you measure the thickness of a flint you consider to be a good thin one? So I have a reference to go by? Thanks in advance. Kurt.
 
Roundball: amen on the thin flint observations. I've had flints so thick that I reject them out of hand. Tried to thin some by knapping, but they shatterered. May have to get one of those diamond cutting saw dohickeys & try that. Thanks.
 
uncrichie said:
RB, could you do me a favor when you get time. Could you measure the thickness of a flint you consider to be a good thin one? So I have a reference to go by? Thanks in advance. Kurt
For me, in my locks:
1/8"-3/16" mostly flat BEFs are the best;
1/4"-5/16" mostly flat BEFs are excellent;
3/8"-1/2" thick with steep slopes and you're into the hump backs with short flint life.

I haven't completely re-engineered a hump back into a thin flat one as that would just takes too long...but I cut down the hump as much as practical to make it a flat top.
This lets me flip the flint over back and forth from bevel up to bevel down and back again every 12-15 shots when I'm cleaning the lock off with alcohol...they tend to sort of self knapp themselves doing that and extend flint life some.

NOTE:
Another thing that helps my flint life with 3/4" flints in t/C's new locks is using the longer size 3/4: flint.

There are two sizes of Tom Fuller BEFs:
3/4" wide x 3/4" long
3/4" wide x 7/8" long

The longer ones are a full 1/8" longer and that adds up to a lot of extra shots...so if you're using the standard 3/4" x 3/4" move up to the 3/4" x 7/8" next time you buy some flints.

When I get done with a 50 shot range session and come home to clean the ML, I clean the flint and toss it in a jar...then a couple times a year I'll sit down at the bench and restore / resurface their fronts with the Dremel tool to get more life out of them...some may only be 10-15 shots, some 20-25 shots, etc.
 
Trench mentioned heating the spring before trying to bend it.

If a person uses this method, they need to understand that they will have to put the spring back thru a hardening and tempering heat treatment to get the spring back to being a spring.

If the spring is heated to remove its "springiness" it will not become a spring again without this process.
 
I've found if you keep a dab of synth grease on the spring between it and the cam lobe of the frizzen it will make it function much easier and smoother. It has become a habit of mine to disassemble the lock and grease it's workings. I also polished the lobe and spring where it rubs with fine steel wool so it is like a mirror. You could pinch the spring to make it weaker with a vise, but only a very small amount. If you go too far you've ruined it. I'd also grease the pivot on the frizzen as well. Lube makes a huge difference. I use the red moly synthetic grease that will not freeze, and will not melt either.
 
This is what I use on the frizzen lobe/spring surface, plus the pivot screw and bridle areas:

ShootersChoiceGreaseSHCG10CC_1.jpg
 
RB, thanks for all the flint measurements and suggestions. I believe that following your info will improve my situation.

I'd also like to wish everyone a politically incorrect MERRY CHRISTMAS. Kurt.
 
I would think it is impossible to "weaken" a spring by compressing it, that would be an oxymoron. A spring is a spring and will return to its original configuration. If you compress it too much it may break of course.

The only way to change the configuration would be to heat and bend then re-harden and draw, not difficult but it does require experience.

Not all flintlocks consume flints at the same rate. Some early writers complained at times about locks, strong mainsprings etc. but they were sure fire. Flints are a consumable, just like powder and lead.

Ben
 
Ben Coogle said:
I would think it is impossible to "weaken" a spring by compressing it, that would be an oxymoron. A spring is a spring and will return to its original configuration. If you compress it too much it may break of course.

The only way to change the configuration would be to heat and bend then re-harden and draw, not difficult but it does require experience.

Not all flintlocks consume flints at the same rate. Some early writers complained at times about locks, strong mainsprings etc. but they were sure fire. Flints are a consumable, just like powder and lead.

Ben
Compressing the spring might not "weaken" it for all measures of engineering, but it will change the range over which the springiness is functional. Comprende amigo? This cold-shaping merely bends the metal more or differently than original. As mentioned very easy to break a spring cold and heating will likely alter the temper/hardening. Heat-treating, annealing, hardening, quenching, etc. Good discussion, but thas another thread. :v
 
I expect that Ben "comprendes" completely. He knows a thing or two about these old guns and the bits that they are made up of. Welcome to the forum Ben. :thumbsup:
 
Ben Coogle said:
Flints are a consumable, just like powder and lead.
Money from one's wallet is also a consumable and basiclly this thread was about ways to increase flint life;
:wink:

Compressing the spring might not "weaken" it for all measures of engineering, but it will change the range over which the springiness is functional.

Correct
 
No it won't. There is no such thing as "Cold Shaping" a spring, again that is an oxymoron! If you can change the "Range" of flexion it is not a spring.

A good vee spring can be closed completely and will open back up to where it started, that is why it is a spring!

Kit Ravenshear told me once that if a spring was a spring 200 years ago it is a spring today.

Ben
Thanks Russ T. Glad to be here!
 
This exchange kind of reminds me of Bill Clinton's famous phrase:
Depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is.

:grin:
 
A spring is designed to work within a specific range of motion. If you compress or extend the spring very slightly (not enough to break it, in other words) beyond this range it gets softer or firmer. Coil springs often can't be compressed enough to soften them, but they can be stretched slightly to firm them up. With a flat spring, you ought to be able to do either. :hmm:
 
Back
Top