Where does the energy go?

[TKelly]

You sure did invest much time to share your scientific summary of the events, for this just to be an exercise in "silliness"...

I fundamentally agree with Zonie too!

PS.

You read well...

 

[Danbo]

I dropped the ball on my comment about Zonie's post as quoted by Kodiak. He is correct and indicated clearly that a smooth bore ball can veer or deviate in any direction. Sorry for that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect

 

[TKelly]

Hey there Bakeoven Bill!

Knowing that they have shorter ranges from empirical discovery can be quite a mental exploration once you've encapsulated your experience in afterthought, words, and theory.

Thank you

 

[John Wasmuth]

S
W
A
G

 

[TKelly]

S
W
A
G

So What's A Swag, Micanopy?

 

[John Wasmuth]

Scientific
Wild
A$$ed
Guess
much like empirical discovery. :rotf:

 

[JMinnerath]

S W A G :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
Our favorite expression in the heavy equipment shop!

 

[chuck-ia]

I guess we all enjoy this hobby for different reasons. I like it because it can be very simple and I try to keep it that way, I don't even know what some of the words you guys are using mean. I do know a smoothbore .62 will shoot through a deer length ways at 30 yards and kill it dead, I'm sure it would allso go through both lungs on a 50 yard broadside shot, and kill it. Thats pretty much all I need to know. flinch

 

[John Wasmuth]

Me neither, big words hurt my head. I pour a measured amount of powder, run patched round ball down barrel, put sights on animal, squeeze trigger, take it home cook and eat it. Thats about as thechnical as I wish to get. :thumbsup:

 

[TKelly]

I guess we all enjoy this hobby for different reasons. I like it because it can be very simple and I try to keep it that way, I don't even know what some of the words you guys are using mean. I do know a smoothbore .62 will shoot through a deer length ways at 30 yards and kill it dead, I'm sure it would allso go through both lungs on a 50 yard broadside shot, and kill it. Thats pretty much all I need to know. flinch

We only used a few words that you might not be familiar with. However, those few words, once understood will help you to understand another dimension of muzzleloading. I remember my father trying to explain the motion of objects to me when I was a kid.
However, once I grew up and was able to read books and understand things for myself, it made a personal difference to me.
I've always tried to learn about things that were of interest to me.
I guess, the outdoors, animals, hunting, fishing, and weapons have always been of interest to me and I've always tried to become more familiar with them.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Some of us here have been hunting with these things since we were children, I was six when I started shooting them so its not a complex thing to do. I try as always to keep it as simple as possible, work up the most accurate load for a given arm, practice with it often, load, prime, aim, fire, repeat as needed. As an old Gunny Sgt. used to tell me, "It's a simple ting".

 

[longbow1]

There are only to things that effect KE that is speed and mass . Increase speed increase KE .Increase mass increase KE

 

[longbow1]

What makes you think that rifling increases speed you can only increase speed by increasing the powder charge or decreasing the weight of the ball , KE is only used to calculate the impact of the ball on the target and nothing else . Unless the rifling was extremly fast it is not going to impart a noticable difference and a slow twist will not create that much drag in the barrel.Take it to a more realistic range say 50-60 yards and then do it

 

[longbow1]

Didn't the military tanks move away from rifled barrel The Abrahams gun is a smooth bore isn't it I wonder why :dead:

 

[Larry Pletcher]

What makes you think that rifling increases speed you can only increase speed by increasing the powder charge or decreasing the weight of the ball

. . or by burning the charge more (or less)completely. Suppose the smoothbore created less resistance to the burning charge and exited the barrel before the powder was burned completely. You know - the classic powder seen in the snow in front of the muzzle. Any that didn't burn in the barrel means a smaller powder charge. The question doesn't say that the smoothbore was tightly patched.

In fact the original question leaves a lot unsaid. For example, the following senario fits the question too:

Two hunters fire at the same deer. The smoothbore shooter hits a tree 70yds away. The rifle shooter hits the deer that runs away. The deer is recovered 250 yards away.

One could spend the evening trying to satisfy the conflicting facts given or explaining the things unsaid. I think I'll quit here.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[TKelly]

First refer to post # 922282 where Robtattoo makes a suggestion concerning the smoothbore, possibly not having as tight a seal as the rifled bore.

Next, refer to what Pletch says about the incomplete burning of powder.


He answers and then he goes somewhere else with speculations about things left unstated.

Well all I can say about that is I was trying to remember a test question from years ago. If I've forgotten some minor fact, I'm sorry. Keep your shirt on...

All of the important facts were there!

PS.

Hey the question has been answered. All of the pretty girls are gone. There's no more liquor being served. The Party is Over!

Now go home and stop makin' all that noise out there or I'll call a cop!

 

[Larry Pletcher]

I'm sorry I vented my frustration. It didn't seem like we were getting anywhere, and I typed faster than I thought. Noormallly I caan't tipe fast inough too evar du thate.

I'll try harder the next time.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Dphar]

Because they wanted the projectile to strike armor straight on IE perfectly point first.
Spinning projectiles (elongated ones) are nose high at the longer ranges.
I.E. The projectile nose is ABOVE the trajectory centerline.

Dan

 

[kelleyjk]

I assumed maybe incorrectly this question was about the flight dynamics for a round ball

to even address that we need to get past the muzzle so to speak, we already know the anwswer to this if we load same ball same powder in 2 different guns one rifles one smooth,so after all the internal ballistics are behind us, so to speak we have

2 balls flyin down range at THE SAME VELOCITY one spinning, one not spinning which one goes farther?

I dont care if your touch is enlarged I dont care what your twist is or how many grains of powder or compressed aire or rubber bands it takes to make the two identical ball fly AT THE SAME VELOCITY

now that this has been established, which ball goes farther if the is not the question Kodiakhunter wanted to ask I am asking it here, again only concerned with identical balls, same speed one spinning one not

I reject the comment about rifling being designed to somehow interupt / over come the laminar flow around a projectile

look at elongated projectiles ie something with a higher ballistic coeficient than a sphere (Kodiak hunter this is where pitch and yaw come into play)

Danbo, theres very little if any irregular imbalance in the laminar flow, concentricity or any other big words on my 7.62 Sierra Matchking 168gr boatail round, but as good as that bullet is, if it aint spinnin, I aint hittin an Abrams M1 even at 500 metres

as to a round ball yep theyre irregular, especailly cast balls tend to have more mass on one side than a swager, still gyroscopic stabilization does occur (even if it dont "yaw" like a pointy bullet)

Ok so if I have miss understood you KH its still a valid question

which one goes farther?

.58 ball spinnin
.58 ball not spinnin

both equally irregular :shake: both shot from theoretical devices so they start the contest at exactly the same velocity, I thinks it be a good question :thumbsup:

 

[longbow1]

I could almost agree with you if black powder burned progressively if the powder choosen properly meaning the fast powders with lighter ball and the slower powders with the heavy ball there would not be that much unburnt powder on the ground. OK back to speed vs rifling since blackpowder does not burn progressively the black powder doesn't build pressure as does modern powders it only has so much push and when the black powder burns out in the barrel there is no increase in pressure. With black powder upon ignition as the ball travels down the barrel the pressure will go down because of the pressure chamber ( the barrel) increases and the inside pressure (Expanding gases) begin to take up the area made behind the ball then pressure begins to fall and because it has burnt the powder there is no increase in speed you can't apply modern powders physics to black powder is doesn't work the exactly same way All things being equal the smooth bore should have a higher muzzle velocity