What is reasonable accuracy for hunting?

[elrotundamundo]

I have a T/C Renegade Hunter in .50 caliber that I have had since the 80s, and I have never been able to get good 100 yard groups with 370 grain Maxi-balls. The gun shoots patched round balls pretty good at 100 yards but Maxi-balls group at 5" on a good day. I've tried FFg and FFFg anywhere from 60 grains to 120 grains and nothing seems to help tighten the groups except using a felt wad.

I've taken one cow elk and a couple of mule deer with this rifle and Maxis over the years.

I will possibly be hunting in a spike elk hunt this December in North Idaho on some family property and
would prefer to use a conical and would like some input on something other than Maxi-balls. I have seen REAL bullets and Great Plains on the shelves around here. The gun is a 1:48" twist. Ranges are usually well under 100 yards, but occasionally a longer shot( up to 150 yards) presents itself

Any sage advise?

 

[Kansas Jake]

First off, I don't shoot maxi-balls or other conicals, so I really can't respond other than some general questions.

You mention 5" as a good 100 yard group. What would be your poor group with the same load? It would seem a 5" group, while not great would be ok for elk at up to 100 yards.

I would also suggest you try a couple of the other bullets as you mentioned such as the REAL and GP. One of them may give you the accuracy you are looking for.

Also, what kind of accuracy to you get with a patched round ball at 100 yards? If it is significantly better, then that helps rule out operator error.

Other factors can come into play too. Type of lube on the conical, powder charge and type of powder, a worn nipple, etc.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[don hepler]

I'm close to your age, and I have shortened my distance, for open sighted guns. I just don't see as well, as I did when I was young. I am using a nice pair of high end eye glasses, which helps. But you might consider a peep sight. Most people shoot better at long distances, with peep sights. Just look at the Sharps rifle, guys.

As far as the TC's and 1 in 48 twist, I never got much accuracy, at long range, back in the day, when I used that combination. A good tight patched ball, will probably shoot better. With that said, I only hunt eastern whitetail, so if I were hunting elk, I'd want all the fire power, I could get, and sacrifice some accuracy.

Even with a consistent 5" group, you're still shooting within 2 1/2" from where you're aiming. Just sounds better, when you look at it, that way.
:idunno:

 

[slumlord44]

To me a 6" group at 100 yards is adequate for hunting Midwest whitetails. 5" is better.

 

[Don Steele]

My first thought is that if you've used that T/C Maxi to take an Elk and "a couple of Mule Deer"..you don't have to change anything.
That said, probably the most important thing to remember is that your Renegade/Maxi-ball combination ain't a "sniper rifle". Keep to reasonable range limits, and ENJOY.

I do some hunting with a 50 cal T/C "Hawken" style rifle, also 1:48 twist. When I sat down a couple years ago to do a side-by-side comparison test, using a bench rest, I found the Hornady "Great Plains" 385 gn hollow base-hollow point conical consistently performed better than the T/C 370 maxi-ball.
I won't consider shot over 100 yds.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Sir,

I understand that you probably don't want to use a 177 grain round ball on an elk out to 100 yards, and are opting for a conical to give you more umph on that larger animal. I've a couple of the Thompson Center products. One is a .50 caliber Hawken, and the other is a .54 caliber New Englander.

I found that although both rifles shot round ball well, the Maxi-Balls sucked eggs in both. I'd a thought that since both are Thompson Center products that their bullets would be made to work well in their rifles. Maybe they are but they did not work well in my rifles.

However, I then tried the Maxi-Hunter in them in .50 and .54, and also in the Cabela's Blue Ridge Hunter that I owned at the time (a .50 caliber). The group change was excellent, and tightened right up. Meaning almost touching at 50 yards and under 5" at 100 yards. Might I suggest that you try them in your rifle over the Maxi-Balls that you have attempted so far? My results with the .50 were with the lighter of the two Maxi-Hunters.

I've also seen good results with Lee brand REAL bullets, but I've transitioned up to .54 for all my deer hunting these days, and strictly round ball in those. I tried the conicals for a moose hunt back in 2006. :wink:

LD

 

[Pete G]

My definition of "reasonable" accuracy is being able to hit a standard paper plate 100% of the time from normal hunting positions.

 

[BrownBear]

For me it's a combo of the shooter and the gun. "Accuracy" is a frank confrontation of your own limits as well as that of the gun. Doesn't mean poot if your gun will group 2" from the bench at 100 yards if you can't hold 12" at that range.

Group your gun from the bench and get it performing as well as it can. Then move away from the bench, as well as that nice flat ground without obstructions at the range to do your shooting.

I hold my "hunting" accuracy to the distance and shooting method that lets me reliably land my shots in about a 6" circle for deer and other large game and a 3" circle for small game. If the game is farther away than I can accomplish that offhand, I find a rest or move closer or pass the shot. Only way I know to develop that judgement is lots of practice away from the bench, and especially away from the range. That's why I love small game hunting so much- It helps me develop the judgement needed for field shots at large game.

And "accuracy" is as much about the judgement of the hunter as the group size of the gun.

The best measure of hunters in my book is the shots they're man enough to pass up, rather than the chances they're willing to take on a shot.

 

[Spikebuck]

nothing seems to help tighten the groups except using a felt wad.

Any sage advise?

Based on your above statement, I would say that the expansion of the flat base of the Maxi is not enough to completely fill the rifling, so you are getting some inconsistency, which is more noticeable the farther downrange you are trying to get a group. I have always had the same experience anytime I tried TC Maxi's.

I personally found that conicals with a hollow base, like the Hornady Great Plains, were superior in accuracy. I believe the hollow base allows for easier expansion than the solid flat base, fills the rifling and improves accuracy.

Now, if you don't want to experiment with other types of conicals and the wad improves the accuracy of the TC's you have, go ahead and just keep shooting the TC's with a wad behind them.

The below picture is a 100 yard group from my Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken in .54 with 90 gr of 777 pushing 425 gr Hornady GP conicals. While I don't always have these kinds of 100 yard groups, it's not uncommon to have 3" with this load.

This is bench rested in a solid cradle front and rear, so I consider this what the gun and load can do with my eyes and open sights, not necessarily what I can do resting on a stump at that distance in a hunting situation. Note how crisp the holes are...no wobbling of the conical...and that's from a 1-65 twist barrel.

 

[Artificer]

Excellent explanation. Could not agree more. :hatsoff:

Gus

 

[hanshi]

I shoot only prb. But I think the GUN'S accuracy depends on whether or not it keeps the shots in the kill area of the game being hunted. The SHOOTER'S accuracy is the max range he/she can keep all shots in the same size target.

 

[elrotundamundo]

Thank you all for your input. My concern was that, by the time you add up the deviation from the point of aim from the gun/load combination, to my field shooting abilities, the groups would be larger still.

I carry shooting sticks with me when hunting, anymore, since I tend to get buck fever even after hunting all my life. Sounds like I need to do some range practice with my sticks to see what my real accuracy is. I started using peep sights a few years back, and had them put a top bifocal panel in the right lens of my glasses, so I can focus on the front sight with both rifles and revolvers.

I think I will try some REALS and Great Plains to see what they do in my gun

 

[Hawken-Hunter]

Replying to Spikebuck's comment, I was not aware we could accurately shoot conicals from a 1/60 or 1/65 twist. I may give this a try.

 

[Gene L]

I would think 5" @ 100 yards is pretty good shooting. I've had open-sight military rifles that wouldn't do much better. And I'm a pretty good shot on a pretty good day.

As has been said already, there's "rifle" accuracy and "shooter" accuracy. I don't know how to check rifle accuracy except to let a really good shooter bench it. Someone who has a proven record with open sights.

Shooter accuracy we all know how to check that.

I'm not a hunter and when I was, I have never hunted out west where there's open terrain but where I live 100 yards is what would be considered a fairly long shot.

 

[BrownBear]

...I have never hunted out west where there's open terrain but where I live 100 yards is what would be considered a fairly long shot.

It can be pretty daunting. I spotted a nice buck the other day at around 800 yards (good glass). Had to pass on him....

Or rather, I muffed the stalk at around 150-175 yards on my way to 50 yards. Another spaghetti night. :rotf:

 

[Christophero]

When I cast the TC Maxihunter, 355 grain Conicals,the accuracy out of my TC Renegade was something to write home about. 3" groups off the bench weren't uncommon, many times less. My go to load was 65grains of Geox fffg. I took an 8 point buck at 175 yds with this combination, severing the spine and the chunk of lead passed through.

I noticed 5 grains more powder was too much, stripping the bullet from the lands, destroying accuracy. This was with pure lead.

 

[rusty]

If you were to shoot some patched balls,you will be very supprised.

 

[Spikebuck]

Replying to Spikebuck's comment, I was not aware we could accurately shoot conicals from a 1/60 or 1/65 twist. I may give this a try.

I would not say all slow-twist barrels will produce results with conicals, though both my Pedersoli Rocky Mtn Hawken and Frontier rifles in .54 did just that. But Pedersoli's have fairly shallow square groove rifling. I would not even attempt a conical in my deep round-groove barrels.

A tip on hunting shooting I learned on this forum that I've practiced with and it helps...I like a good rest when hunting and always try to set myself up by being able to lay the gun on a log or stump, or get it solidly against a tree. BUT in those instances when those are not available, removing and using the ramrod as a support works! I have practiced kneeling on one knee and putting one end on my extended boot, the other with my hand on top, or if a long rod, on the side to rest the gun on just like it was a sapling. I have practiced standing by putting one end into my hip for support. IT WORKS.

Just another note...I've gone 100% PRB now. Over the years, I've just found that they kill just as quickly at the ranges I shoot game at, are easier on the shoulder, and cost a lot less. I do shoot larger calibers... 54, 58, 62, so they have plenty of whompability too. :grin: But that's ff so I'll stop now. :wink:

 

[jrmflintlock]

I too shoot only round balls and have the utmost faith in them If I do my part.

My nephew shot a pig of a cow in Colorado a few weeks ago with his .50 cal Bobcat shooting 80 grains of FFF and a patched RB.

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That being said, I have another buddy who swares by the accuracy he gets from a bullet from www.prbullet.com out of his pedersoli blue ridge rifle. Its a 350 grain hollow point spritzer.

Like others have said if you don't like the accuracy of one try another!

Good luck on your hunt!

 

[varsity07840]

My first thought is that if you've used that T/C Maxi to take an Elk and "a couple of Mule Deer"..you don't have to change anything.
That said, probably the most important thing to remember is that your Renegade/Maxi-ball combination ain't a "sniper rifle". Keep to reasonable range limits, and ENJOY.

I do some hunting with a 50 cal T/C "Hawken" style rifle, also 1:48 twist. When I sat down a couple years ago to do a side-by-side comparison test, using a bench rest, I found the Hornady "Great Plains" 385 gn hollow base-hollow point conical consistently performed better than the T/C 370 maxi-ball.
I won't consider shot over 100 yds.

I'm strictly a PRB man but 25 years ago I built a .50 Renegade kit for my dad. It was tack driver with the Hornady over 80 gr of Goex 2F.