Twist for 54?

[nchawkeye]

When I built my .54 in the '80s, I ordered a Ed Rayle barrel, asked him what twist, he said 1-72...That's what she has and she groups well from 50-120grs FFF...Never tried less, I have a .40 for that... I settled on 80grs FFF for a hunting charge simply because it gets the job done and leaves less fouling than larger charges...

I think more than twist, rifling depth is critical...A barrel made for round balls with the deeper, cut rifling will be more forgiving than a button rifled, mass produced barrel...

 

[Loyalist Dave]

A barrel made for round balls with the deeper, cut rifling will be more forgiving than a button rifled, mass produced barrel...

Why?

LD

 

[Tom Compton]

Because the shallow grooves may not hold their grip on a large (heavy) ball as it is quickly forced from a state of non rotation to high revolutions per second when fired with larger powder charges. Especially if FFFg is used increasing the sudden acceleration.

 

[Rifleman1776]

A barrel made for round balls with the deeper, cut rifling will be more forgiving than a button rifled, mass produced barrel...

Why?

LD

I question the logic of that statement also. What does "forgiving" mean in this context? I had a TC not-really-a-hawken-"hawken" with very shallow rifling. It shot fine once I worked out a patch/ball combo it liked. Very thin patch cloth and relatively tight ball. Shot fine.

 

[bigted]

So just to throw a thought in the ring here, didn't the original Hawkins [JS] have a 48 inch twist? Thought i read this in the past.

Every 54 i have had shot very well with 80 grain charges. I always use 2Fg powder and both TC's and Lymans have shot very well with this charge. TC likes a lose patch with a 530 ball while the Lymans have always liked the tighter 535 ball needing a short starter to begin them down the barrel.

Most recent is the older Renegade seems to shoot well with 530 and .015 cotton patch thumb started into the barrel and easy ramming with the ramrod.

 

[mooman76]

Yes they did. Rumor has it, it was because that is the only twist they had because that is the only rifling they were set up for. Hey if it works, don't fix it.

 

[Rifleman1776]

didn't the original Hawkins [JS] have a 48 inch twist?

Can't say for certain but I believe reading that was the case. In those museums that post nomenclature with their rifles (e.g. the J.M. Davis gun museum in Claremore, OK) 90% of their rifles have a 1:48" twist. Somebody must like it.

 

[Walks with fire]

So far my .54 1/48 twist lyman barrel is not fully broken in but it doesn't show any signs as of yet of doing what a slow twist will do. I bought it to do my own myth busting and it better wake up.

Only very accurate rifles are interesting.

 

[BrownBear]

...is not fully broken in....

There's your clue. In my experience with Lyman's it generally takes over 200 shots to "break them in." But along with that I've had to go with a little thicker patch once I pass the 200 mark. THEN the accuracy gets real interesting.

 

[Walks with fire]

It has a little more than 100 rounds thru it so far and it does seem to be improving slightly over time. I got a load tip from someone to try some Swiss 2f at 85 grains and he showed some of his targets with it; they were very good. I will get another box down the tube as soon as the weather breaks a little.

I know others have good luck with the 1/48 twist so it will come around eventually. I only shoot ball.

Have a good year Brown Bear.

 

[Zonie]

Good luck with the Swiss loads but, don't get your hopes up.

As you know, each one of these guns has a personality of its own.

Three, seemingly identical rifles made by the same company will often like three different powder/patch/ball loads and what works great in one may not work even good in either of the other guns.

 

[George]

So just to throw a thought in the ring here, didn't the original Hawkins [JS] have a 48 inch twist?

In Bulletin #7 (Spring 1963),the American Society of Arms Collectors, an article describing an examination of the original rifling machine from the Hawken shop in St. Louis:

"We found this rig complete and in fine condition although it shows much use. It is typical in design except much more metal was used.
It is approximately 10 feet long.
The threaded feed screw is metal with male threads, right twist. It can’t make a left-twist groove.
The indexor will permit a 7 land and groove cut.
The cutter mounted in the wood bore fitting plug has a slight curvature to produce rounded bottom grooves."

(The author notes ”“ from slugging original barrels - “All observed Hawken long guns have 7 lands and grooves with the grooves having a noticeable rounded bottom or curvature. They are all right twist. Approximately one turn in 48.”)

Spence

 

[BrownBear]

Great citations Spence. Any indication on the depth of the grooves? That seems to be the bigger factor for me rather than twist rate.

 

[George]

The article doesn't discuss groove depth.

Spence

 

[Rifleman1776]

It has a little more than 100 rounds thru it so far and it does seem to be improving slightly over time. I got a load tip from someone to try some Swiss 2f at 85 grains and he showed some of his targets with it; they were very good. I will get another box down the tube as soon as the weather breaks a little.

I know others have good luck with the 1/48 twist so it will come around eventually. I only shoot ball.

Have a good year Brown Bear.

Don't get too hung up on the break in thing. As I'm sure you know, many other factors affect accuracy. e.g ball size, ball hardness, patch cloth used, lube used, how you hold yer mouth and alignment of the stars. But, congrats for actually shooting and working towards your goal. Seems at times some here try to solve all their shooting problems from the keyboard.

 

[Zonie]

Don't forget to make it a point to check the condition of the patches you have shot with.

Any rip or tare indicates some sharp edge in the barrel or at the muzzle and until it is addressed, accuracy will be difficult to achieve.

One of the most common things, and the easiest to fix that can damage a patch with a new barrel are sharp edges where the muzzle meets the rifleing grooves.

Any sharp edge there will cut or greatly weaken the patch causing it to fail when the gun fires.

 

[TerryK]

Don't forget to make it a point to check the condition of the patches you have shot with.

Any rip or tare indicates some sharp edge in the barrel or at the muzzle and until it is addressed, accuracy will be difficult to achieve.

One of the most common things, and the easiest to fix that can damage a patch with a new barrel are sharp edges where the muzzle meets the rifleing grooves.

Any sharp edge there will cut or greatly weaken the patch causing it to fail when the gun fires.

Zonie, I am thinking about having a new build using a Colerain barrel in cal 54. What is your preferred method to smooth down the rough edges? Thanks.

 

[Zonie]

Follow this link to see one of my answers about fixing muzzle crowns:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...tid/291971/post/1442647/fromsearch/1/#1442647

This next link also deals with new barrels and what can be done to "break them in".

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...tid/304717/post/1639284/fromsearch/1/#1639284