Small caliber muzzleloading pistol build

[maximusdesmus]

Let me introduce myself.My name is Igor.I would like to start this subject with a question of utmost importance to my project.

I have made drawings and templates for a single shot 6mm black powder percussion pistol.

Being ready to start crafting it i can not decide what steel to use for the barrel, my intention is to use classical safety guideline of wall thickness being the caliber itself so using 18mm od tubing with 6mm smoothbore hole.

I have few carbon steels available
one is 1045 in cold rolled condition
and the other two should be 1018 and 1020 aisi but i cant confirm that reference so i will post links with complete specifications of steels i have available which are

C45 AISI 1045 http://www.steelnumber.com/en/steel_composition_eu.php?name_id=152

C15 AISI ???? http://www.steelnumber.com/en/steel_composition_eu.php?name_id=148

S235JR LOW CARBON STEEL AISI 1020? http://www.steelnumber.com/en/steel_composition_eu.php?name_id=4


Thank you in advance ,i will post pictures of my drawings tomorrow if i can.

 

[maximusdesmus]

what steel should i use?
is 0.7mm entry hole for cap gas too big?

is it ok in cold rolled condition or is there a need for hardening(im looking to avoit it)?

anyone?

 

[Zonie]

From what I found on the web, C15 equates with a SAE 1015 plain carbon steel. I would expect it to be somewhat weaker than a SAE 1018 or 1020 steel.

Generally speaking the barrel steel used for black powder muzzleloading firearms can use a 1018 or 1020 steel safely.

The C45 (SAE 1045) would have a greater strength than the 1018 or 1020.

Some of the private barrel makers in the US use a leaded steel (12L14) because it is easier to machine and has a strength similar to SAE 1020. As long as black powder is used there are no problems with it.

The .7mm (.028 inch) would be a suitable size for the hole thru the percussion nipple.

The 1045 steel can be heat treated to raise its mechanical properties but the 1018 or 1020 steels will not respond to any thermal hardening process.

They can be annealed to reduce the residual stress caused by the rolling process if they are Cold Rolled Steel (CRS) but again, IMO there is not much to be gained by doing this for a muzzleloaders barrel.

The sizes you mentioned will produce a barrel wall thickness (.236 inches) that exceeds the thickness the US government felt was safe during the American Civil War.
They felt the breech area should be .200 inch (5.08mm) minimum.

 

[maximusdesmus]

OK.Thank you for answering.I shall use 1045 for barrel in cold rolled condition without any heat treatment.



Sorry for bad drawing(always hated mouse drawing) :cursing:

Which ignition system is safer?I know both of these work,for the first nipple system only drilling of 2 holes is necessary, however for the second additional block must be added,is it safer to thread it and if so what barrel thickness to leave untouched when making inner thread, or is it safer to weld the joint?

i ve been trying to find references and images online for the ignition barrel joint for percussion system but i couldnt find any,would sertanly get some of the muzzleloading books but its little complicated because of my location.

What option is better and safer for the shooter??

:wink:

 

[maximusdesmus]

Anyone?

 

[John Taylor]

You can also go with an under hammer or mule ear and screw the nipple into the barrel at a right angle.

 

[M. De Land]

I disagree with the use of any cold rolled steel for combustible powder, barrel application.
It will have very poor Izod or Sharpy numbers which are used to indicate hoop stress strength. They tend to be brittle and the colder it gets the more brittle they become.
The cold rolling is even more important than what the steel carbon numbers are for pressure strength. This I leaned from a metallurgist report on barrel steel and is not just an opinion.
For instance, a typical .22 long rifle barrel steel capable of containing pressure up to about 30,000 lbs per square inch of cartridge pressure will very often be of 1014-1017 carbon steel hot rolled.
Thin barrel liners from Redmen that I use are made of 4140 chrome molly alloy steel. Mike D.

 

[galamb]

You may want to try and contact a barrel maker - a number are listed on the net if you search for them. An email explaining what you are trying to do would probably get a response from many of them.

As to the different styles of percussion breech, here are some variations of patent breeches. The "side drum" is potentially the weakest of the designs.

 

[Zonie]

As I'm sure you noticed when you signed up, this is a Traditional muzzleloading site.
As such, we try to use methods and designs that date from 1865 and earlier.

The straight thru, "in line" was not commonly used prior to 1980 so although it is safe I really can't get into discussing that design.

That leaves your design #2 or as mentioned the method where the percussion nipple is screwed directly into the side of the barrel.

This direct approach was used not only on underhammer and "mule ear" guns but was one of several methods used by the US government to convert flintlock muskets to the newer percussion system.

If you follow this link to Track of the Wolf's site you can see several simple side "drums" that they sell.

Even if ordering one of these is not possible I'm sure you can see how they are made.
They are screwed directly into the side of the barrel right in front of the face of the barrels breech plug.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/809/1

Of course, if you do use a side drum your big problem will be fabricating a lock to use.

Here is a TOTW link to some of the locks they offer.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/762/1

Another link showing several photos of percussion locks and the parts that are needed to build one.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pe...HKcGQyAHRhICgDA&ved=0CDsQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=920

 

[M. De Land]

Excellent suggestion!Mike D.

 

[maximusdesmus]

I understand your advice,i could get some 4140 hot rolled ,would it be more suitable for using as a chamber than 1045 ?



Thanks you all very much for the reply i appreciate it.

Igor.

 

[maximusdesmus]

this is the system ill be using i have made decision.

Which leaves me with 3 questions

1st. 1045cold rolled or 4140 hot rolled for the chamber? (i will be drilling chamber hole from one side and ignition hole from the other side,will not use breech plug)

2nd.Should i cast 6mm bullets or 5,5 and use cotton wading?
(chamber will be 6mm)

3rd.How to calculate how much powder i should charge for optimal results with different weight lead bullets?

Best regards ,
Igor. :hmm: :wink:

 

[MSW]

for what it's worth, I'd go with a 5.5mm projectile and use a patch or wadding. (Do I assume correctly that this will be smoothbore?) You will be surprised at the short range accuracy of smoothbore weapons.

I can't give you direct advice about a starting load, but with a rifled barrel, I usually start with about one and a half times the bore; thus a .50 caliber barrel would start with a 75 grain charge. (7000 grains to a pound)...

if you're looking at a 6mm smooth bore, I guess you'd be in the 35 grain area. this might be a bit stiff, so you might want to start with 15 or 20 grains. Also, you want to 'proof' your barrel by firing it from a safe distance when you touch it off for the first time.

good luck with your project -let us know how it comes out!

 

[maximusdesmus]

Yes you assumed correctly it will be a smoothbore ,i will post pictures in the progress,

thank you very much for the reply thats exactly what i wanted to know.

Best regards :v

Igor.

 

[Zonie]

Being a smooth bore pistol, a 15-20 grain powder load will be quite sufficient.

You may know this but there are 7000 grains in one pound of weight.
If I did my mathematics right 17 grains of black powder would be about 1.17cc worth.
(Black powder weighs about 245 grains per cubic inch).

By the way, under no circumstances should you load a modern smokeless powder into your gun.
Even using unheat treated 4140 steel, modern smokeless powder can cause the barrel to explode.

 

[maximusdesmus]

some of the plans




i didnt yet calculate everything and complete my plans but no major changes to this one ill post pics of the build soon.

Igor

 

[54ball]

Can you build and possess this handgun according to Serbian law?

Sometimes we Americans forget that this is an international forum and we give advice based on our laws.

Your design though of small bore and single shot looks to be rather powerful for short range. There is nothing traditional about it.

It looks to be pretty much what we would call over here a Zip Gun. :hmm:

 

[44-henry]

It's an interesting design, but as was mentioned not traditional. Hopefully you have checked into the laws in your country as this may be in violation of them. In any event, it is a topic more suited to other forums that discuss more modern arms.