sitting fox rifles

[Spikebuck]

Based on personal experience with this guy, I would suggest you see the rifle and look it over real good BEFORE you pay for it!! Ron

+1!!! And real good, I might add, includes removing the barrel to see what the inlet looks like under it!

IRT Ray Franks seeing it before it comes to you, in my case it was a definite NO. It came directly to me from the "builder"...and I use the term very loosely...whom I had never heard of.

I did not have the good fortune of being a member of this forum prior to my order or I would have been adequately forewarned that the builds are let out to sometimes inadequate builders.

 

[Kapow]

I bought a kit sthn mtn rifle. It had an incorrectly inlet stock around the tang area and a large crack under the forend. Then he hit me up for more money! He was good to deal with as far as the ordering went but the product sent was not what I paid for and unable to send it back.

I think it was all unintentional but could have been avoided with a bit of care. His pricing was the best by far. He used all the right components, the worst that can happen is the wood isn't right which can be fixed by buying a stock from someone else should you get a bad one.

 

[oldwoodswalker]

thanks for the info spike i think at this point i will probably not use this company. its a poke and hope situation.best to go with a sure thing.thanks again :hatsoff:

 

[oldwoodswalker]

thanks kapow its too bad this gentleman cant see whats happening in his quest to please everyone :idunno:

 

[yakimaman]

My email to Sitting Fox (yesterday) and his response:


From: Rich
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 4:21 PM
Subject: An order

I’ve looked around, looked around for months thinking about a custom built rifle. Your site has more to pick from, more of what I’m looking for than any other I’ve seen but I’m also seeing a good deal of “warning” on the Traditional Muzzleloader Forum when it comes down to ordering a gun from Sitting Fox. Do you really farm the work out to builders with varying skills? Do you really send out a rifle without inspecting it first, without it meeting rigid criteria for fit and finish? I’m not a builder, I’ve no place to work on a kit, no time, and little expertise so I’m only interested in a finished rifle. Can you explain your guarantee? What if I make an order, receive the gun and am not happy with the way it looks? What recourse do I have?

R Miller


I probably should add a section to my site with testemonials from satisfied customers.
Instead I simply ignore the resident experts who haunt the forums with mistaken info or pay people to do so for their own benefit. I followed for days watching these guys blast fit and finish on one of my customers guns until he finally came on and explained that it was ordered "in the white", he did the finishes and they could all stuff it! No apologies were given. Just silence
I wouldn't be in business long if I didn't offer a good product at a fair price and yes, I answer my phone too.
My warranty is simple. If youre not happy then I'm not happy either and I will do what it takes to resolve any issue or refund.
Yes, I use several builders with varying skills. Anybody who believes that one guy in a company can build all the guns they sell and perform all the varying levels of options perfectly is in for a surprise. We often share the same builders or they move from working with one company to another depending on work load, pay grade and how they are treated. I have the privilege to work with several excellent gunsmiths and machinists who produce quality work. Most do this part time because they love it. Some are great at inlays and carving, some are not. Some specialize in certain styles. Some are great at construction, but dont like to finish and some just love to finish and work on simple guns like trade guns and poor boys. My job is to match the job needed to the right builder. Some I do myself, when I can. I don't work with builders or customers I can't trust.
My builders are not on site. They are scattered all over the county. Shipping back and forth for inspection is not feasilble. We send a lot of pictures back and forth. Custom longrifles are not cheap and you have every right to expect satisfaction with the finished product. I probably work harder with each customer to understand their needs and visualize their wants than anyone out there. These are not cookie cutter builds. I dont know what type of longrifle you are interested in yet but when the time comes, use the Order and Estimate Work Sheet at the back of my site to convey your thoughts and specs. I'll respond with a spec sheet showing evey bit and piece and part along with options. Once all is agreed to, a check or money order deposit gets it going. Build times on finished guns can be six months to a year depending on options and we're heading into the busy season. Let me know how I may be of help.

Sitting Fox Custom Muzzleloaders
Ray Franks
989-574-5726

 

[GANGGREEN]

That seems like a pretty fair response from Mr. Franks. Honestly, I'm still unsure that I'd spend my hard-earned money on a completed rifle if I didn't know the builder specifically and wasn't able to research his reputation. That said, someone in this thread gave a positive review on one of the builders that Sitting Fox uses and I'm sure that Mr. Franks would oblige individual requests that only he complete a rifle or that he send it builder X, Y or Z. Thanks for posting the email and response, it was worthwhile in my estimation.

 

[Spikebuck]

Mr Frank's said "If you're not happy then I'm not happy either and I will do what it takes to resolve any issue or refund."

Look at Kapow's example of getting a stock incorrectly inlet and with a large crack. The response didn't sound like "I'm not happy if the customer isn't happy."

In my own case, upon presenting the list of items wrong, including poor inletting, a non-structural crack along the wood by the tang, poor under-the-barrel inlet, among other more easily fixed items (the wood grade was nice though)the response I got was "This is what you get when the builder is rushed." Well let me tell you that I did not make the original time estimate. Mr. Frank's did. If the builder couldn't do a quality job in the time quoted, then he should not have committed the finish date he did.

Mr Frank's was very nice while selling the gun. Not so much when things didn't go well.

 

[oldwoodswalker]

thanks for the post yakimaman some interesting are said and yet i still question the fact that these rifles have sitting foxs name on them and they dont inspect them themselves before they are sent out to the customer. i used to run a small const. company and sometimes i would sub out work,but before i asked for payment i would inspect the job to make sure it was done as well as i could do it or better.nuff said :v

 

[Kapow]

If I was to go through the whole process again I would most probably have a good look at Pecatonica River. I have heard good things about them. My problem is international shipping otherwise he would have got that stock back. I plan down the track to source another stock and rebuild it.

I forgot to mention that the underlug staples did not line up with the holes drilled for them nor hold them in place. I suppose the job would have been a better one if I had them build it for me as they would have had the chance to correct the crappy work that was done.

I see some of the finely made rifles on this site and drool in jealousy. I sincerely hope you get the rifle you dream of and use it to good effect.

 

[oldwoodswalker]

thanks kapow good luck to you too,quantity wins out over quality again hopefully these people will see this whole conversation and maybe rethink what they are doing :idunno:,all i know is at the beginning of this post iasked a simple question and got a firestorm started,but its good to get others opinions and experiences.i wish nothing but the best for all including sitting fox :v

 

[JeffG]

I am on the receiving end of a 54 Virginia smoothbore currently from Sitting Fox. Ray have been interactive and responsive to my needs and tastes. Ray included a no-charge upgrade for me which I much appreciate. The kit I received was 110% what I ordered. Now this is a kit, I guess the rest, including the workmanship is up to me isn't it? Keep your topknot, Irondog. :thumbsup:

 

[Rifleman1776]

If I was to go through the whole process again I would most probably have a good look at Pecatonica River. I have heard good things about them.

They are one of the longest standing ml providers in the game. And their reputation has always been outstanding.

 

[Zonie]

Pecatonica doesn't offer any finished or "in the white" guns.

They know where their expertise is and they don't dabble in trying to get into the actual building of the guns other than to offer good advice if a problem is found.

I should add that they do offer some basic machining like cutting dovetails and installing breech plugs and their prices are more than fair but anyone who buys one of their "kits" will have to put the parts together themselves.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Pecatonica doesn't offer any finished or "in the white" guns.

They know where their expertise is and they don't dabble in trying to get into the actual building of the guns other than to offer good advice if a problem is found.

I should add that they do offer some basic machining like cutting dovetails and installing breech plugs and their prices are more than fair but anyone who buys one of their "kits" will have to put the parts together themselves.

Yes, correct. They cater to builders and advanced shooters with the right skills. That is why I have never bought from them. I ain't neither.

 

[Mickc01]

I've been watching this thread and wondering if I should chime in with my Sitting Fox experience. After reading the emails posted by Mr. Miller, I think I now will.

I ordered a rifle from Mr. Franks several years ago after sending him an image of what I had in mind and several phone calls and emails back and forth. What I received was exactly what I requested, right down to the nice grade of wood. My first impression was one of being quite pleased. However, the L&R lock would absolutely not spark. Now I've been shooting flintlocks for years so I know how to install flints and do all that's necessary to make them work. The problem is the lock.

Mr. Franks' response when I contacted him about the lock was to advise me to contact L&R directly, leaving him out of it. This disappointed me greatly. I guess out of frustration I have yet to try to get the frizzen (re)hardened. I've been able to get the rifle to shoot I think exactly twice, and right now it's a nice wall hanger. Another issue is that it will go off in half cock. I think I could maybe fix this issue with a free hour or two and my Drimel tool, but i have yet to get up the enthusiasm tackle it.

Bottom line is that overall it's a nice rifle but I do find Sitting Fox's customer service a bit lacking. I would really like to sell this rifle to someone that's willing to get the frizzen going but I doubt I could get anywhere near what I paid for it.

My lesson from this experience has been to buy only what I can see already built and preferable hold in my hand, unless it is from someone on the level of Allen Martin, Fred Letho, or Mike Brooks...which I hope to one day soon be doing.

Happy huttin, ya'll! :hatsoff:

 

[oldwoodswalker]

thanks for the input mick,thats an expensive lesson to learn, its too bad that in time this will all come back to bite this man in the butt. because we all know word of mouth is really where we get our next job from and it will catch up to him.good luck to you :hatsoff: