Single phase-double set triggers

[ol vern]

you guys are making a easy job hard. hold the hammer back with
one hand and push the rear trigger forward with the other.

I do this all the time with my flinter, I think with practice
you could do it one handed, lay your hand across the hammer
palm down and use your thumb to push the trigger forward.

 

[George]

Good advice, ol vern. That does the same thing, pushes the set trigger blade against the sear bar and releases the hammer.

Your method works quickly and well on one of my rifles. It works but is a bit awkward on the other because the set trigger is so close to the trigger guard loop it's difficult to get your finger behind it.

Spence

 

[necchi]

Amen, :bow:
But people keep trying to tell him to use his thumb to hold/catch the hammer,,
And as far as I know the feller is still trying to catch the hammer with a thumb that's connected to the same hand as the finger that's pulling the trigger
How on earth folks don't understand they have two hands, one gun, is beyond,,,
ughh, i give up

 

[Grimord]

As the OP of this topic, I would like to thank all that responded with their suggestions to solve my problem. I have tried all of your suggestions,(except replacing the triggers on this fine original gun)to no avail. There is no forward movement of the rear (setting) trigger when the sear is tripped. I am going to stick with my shortened .380 ACP case as a nipple cover and let the hammer fall on it. This seems to be the only SAFE way to lower the hammer on a cap covered nipple.
Thanks again to all that responded.

 

[azmntman]

"on a cap covered nipple"

Why not remove the cap?

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

There is no forward movement of the rear (setting) trigger

The forward movement evidently works only on some triggers. My repo single phase set triggers are like yours, "No" forward movement either.
Be Safe
Flintlocklar :wink:

 

[Grenadier1758]

Do you have to set the triggers to go to full cock? The release lever when released should prevent the sear from engaging the full cock notch.

If there is no forward movement of the rear trigger when the triggers are released, then the release spring is pushing the rear trigger forward and the lever should be pushing the sear out of the full cock notch and if the triggers are released you should not be able to pull the hammer to full cock. The sear spring will push the sear against the tumbler and keep the sear in the full cock notch.

This likely means the sear spring is stronger than the release spring and the sear is pushing the release lever down after the rear release lever is released. Either the triggers need to be inlet deeper or the sear spring needs to be weakened.

 

[necchi]

It pains me some that you still struggle with this, I wish I could be there in person to see the difficulty.
Good luck, staying "safe" first is the best thing.
just thinking,,
Ever occur that you could pick the cap off the nipple? Then use some kind of rubber washer like has been talked about to drop the hammer?
I do know folks use faucet washers to practice trigger control with dry-fire.

 

[Zonie]

you guys are making a easy job hard. hold the hammer back with
one hand and push the rear trigger forward with the other.

I do this all the time with my flinter, I think with practice
you could do it one handed, lay your hand across the hammer
palm down and use your thumb to push the trigger forward.

The problem with that is, the lock cannot be cocked to full cock unless the rear, set trigger, is cocked or set.
This is fairly typical of single lever double set triggers. Often the spring on the rear trigger pushes it forward when it is "un-set" so its lever pushes the sear arm upward. This prevents the sear from falling into the full cock notch.

Once the rear set trigger is set and the lock is fully cocked, the rear trigger cannot be pushed forward to release the sear until the front trigger is pulled to release it (the rear trigger).

The thing I don't understand is, if the set trigger is set, and the lock is cocked, why does not placing a thumb on the hammer spur and then pulling the front trigger to release the rear trigger allow the hammer to fall?

I'm beginning to think that it does but Fyrstyk doesn't trust his thumb to keep the hammer from falling all the way down to the capped nipple.

If this is true, uncapping the gun before trying to release the hammer is the best approach.

 

[necchi]

I'm beginning to wonder why the rifle has the hammer cocked and the nipple capped without the intention of firing to begin with?
:idunno:
Or how this malfunctioning lock/trigger combination is being used.

 

[Grimord]

I would still have to let the hammer fall, and I don't want to bugger up the nipple. By using the .380 case over the capped nipple, I can trip the hammer and not have to worry about ruining the nipple or firing the gun if the nipple is capped.
Can't tell you how many times I have thumbed the hammer back when a squirrel was within range, only to have to lower the hammer because the squirrel moved on or did not present a shot. I need a safe way to lower that hammer of a capped loaded gun.

 

[ol vern]

I believe if you have to set the trigger to cock the lock it is not
safe and should be corrected.

I have used single lever set triggers on several builds and it's easy enough to set things up so you can cock the lock without setting
the trigger.

 

[Grimord]

I have no problem cocking the lock before setting the trigger. It is releasing the hammer without firing the gun that is my problem.

 

[M. De Land]

Try pulling the hammer back slightly and then pull both triggers simultaneous using the first and third fingers then release only the rear trigger before letting the hammer forward.
What actually happens on double, single or close couple set triggers is that the firing trigger is transformed into a secondary sear rather than a simple lever as in a standard trigger.
The inertia from the spring loading of the set trigger(rear of trigger bow) from the firing trigger (front of the trigger bow) is what dislodges contact with the full cock notch in the tumbler.
The lever does not actually have to move the full distance to dislodge contact with the full cock notch as it would in simple lever movement as the inertia energy does it from the spring loading.
A set trigger by virtue of the increased number of pivot points and levers is actually slower in firing time than any single, simple trigger but the mechanical advantage lessons trigger pull weight.
The difference between single and double phase triggers is that the latter can be fired from the front trigger set or unset.
Some complicated set triggers can have up to seven lever movement before firing the gun.
I heard of international free pistols that will fire from the weight of the trigger alone when the muzzle is elevated.
I couldn't even feel that trigger let alone control it. :rotf:

 

[necchi]

A set trigger by virtue of the increased number of pivot points and levers is actually slower in firing time than any single

Whoa,
Is that something pletch did?
If you mean all a single trigger has to do is break the sear from the tumbler,
, and the shooter has pulled the single trigger cam against the sear up-to the break point in preparedness before the clock starts, I could almost believe that.
But any difference would have to be measured in milliseconds.

 

[M. De Land]

Yes, it is milliseconds difference but each additional lever movement is added time to the overall firing sequence and time on target is measured in milliseconds as well.
Target shooting teaches this lesson better than any other method I know as when one learns to call their shot, that is take a mental picture in your mind of the sight position in relation to the target at the time of trigger break, and you know if the shot was good or not before ever looking though a spotting scope.
I got so I could score the target very closely without the spotting scope just from remembering how the sights lined up at the shot break.
No one holds perfectly still and has what is known as a cone of dispersion in how well they can stay on target. The trick is to take up trigger pressure and matching up the break at the same time as the sights align.
The pattern one develops in the cone of dispersion give you and indication of when alignment is coming up and the subconscious trigger take up will intersect for a good shot.
Practice is the only remedy.
This is the reason firing sequence time is just as, if not more important, than a super light trigger pull.
I use both simple and set triggers on various match rifles and my best scores have always been shot with light breaking, crisp, simple triggers that are very fast.
On my match .54 Hawkin style rifle I removed the rear set trigger, made a modified lever and moved the firing trigger to the rear of the finger bow and installed a trigger over travel screw. The lock time is faster, trigger pull is very crisp breaking at roughly 1.5 lbs and is my most accurate muzzle loader.

 

[M. De Land]

It did require making a new trigger of A-2 I think is what I used.

 

[Dr5x]

I am not able to follow all this about a set trigger being slower than a regular trigger?

When going for a perfect target and wanting to diminish my own wobbly twitching about i would have the set trigger set to where only the thought of firing would send enough energy down the line to cause the Hawken to fire.
a true hair trigger.
I strongly advise not to have this set up if there are other people about.

I believe Remington or one other of the name brand center fire people produced a .50 ML rifle with a single set trigger you pushed foreword to set it. backward to fire. I don't remember an adjustment screw.

Dutch

 

[M. De Land]

I've seen that style set trigger on the Rolling block Remington's firing black powder cartridges.
I've made single set and close couple double set triggers for Winchester Low and High Wall black powder cartridge guns. Quite a job working out the Geometry from a drawing but it was interesting.
Never did get the spring balance quite right on the cc double set but it works well in set mode for target shooting.
The single set works perfectly.

 

[Zonie]

I didn't mention anything about a set trigger being slower than a simple trigger but I suppose it could be slower depending on how you look at it.

From the viewpoint of how long does it take the lock to release after the trigger finger "pulls the trigger", the set trigger has to do several things that the simple trigger doesn't have to do.

From the instant the set trigger releases the rear triggers catch, the rear trigger must be propelled forward by its spring.
After traveling a short distance, the blade on the rear trigger must hit the sear arm knocking it upward and releasing the sear from the full cock notch allowing the gun to fire.

This probably takes a few thousandths of a second.

When a simple trigger is lightly pulled, its blade makes contact with the sear arm but it doesn't release the sear.

Adding more pressure to the simple trigger forces the trigger blade to push the sear out of engagement with the full cock notch and the gun fires. This eliminates the time the rear trigger is spending "doing its thing".

Now, in actual use I don't think anyone can actually sense the difference in time so it is mainly just something to discuss and muse over while sipping a bit of Scotch or just sitting on our butts behind a computer keyboard. :grin: