"Restoring" a basket case original.

[mushka]

Good on ya for making a rifle shootable again.

 

[KC Clem]

I hate when threads go this way. Not every piece of sh!t rifle is a historical gem worthy of spending thousands of dollars to conserve. I have an 1840's to 1850's Ohio rifle with a Biddle lock that was my dad's, it needed a bit of work to be a shooter and since it was old and original, I sent it to Jack Brooks to conserve it and make it safe to shoot. I paid almost $600 for that work nearly 10 years ago, have never shot it, and he told me when he was done with it, it might be worth $700 to $750. Not exactly a sound financial move but I did it because it was my dad's. It was quite a bit nicer than what IanH started with. Personally, I think he did a hell of a job, saved it from someone parting it out or just tossing it in the trash, and made it worth shooting again. I enjoyed reading the Foxfire books and in one of them, Volume 5 I think, Hacker Martin talks about collecting up old black powder rifles until he had so many on the second floor of his building that it was in danger of structural damage. He used those as a parts source and for rifles to fix up for anyone that wanted one. I don't imagine he was too worried about conservation of a lot of them and many got fixed however he deemed necessary to make them work, that was probably 70+ years ago so a lot of them were probably a whole lot nicer than the "attic rifles" people find today. My hat is off to IanH for making that old rifle shoot again, I hope he doesn't close down his account because of some less than kind reaction to his original post.

 

[RMH]

My message went right over your head.

That usually happens when a message is delivered as a belittling barb. Others mentioned that there were other ways to do things but stopped once it was apparent the "damage" had been done. Not you. You sat in the corner and sniped, shot one liners when he tried to explain and asked how you came to your conclusions, especially when they differed from observations he made of the actual rifle.

The OP felt he turned a tomato stake into a usable functional rifle. You feel he destroyed a valuable piece of history. The fact is it would have been a tomato stake if the OP hadn't of stepped in. Nobody ever stepped in and said otherwise until after the work was done. A lot of Monday morning quarterbacking being done.

I have looked at some of your work Mr. Comfortably_Numb and it is outstanding. Absolutely first rate. I give you a lot of credit for that. The message I saw you trying to deliver was to drive the OP away. He got that. Congratulations. I don't see how that helps the sport at all.

 

[Mikekj]

Good on ya for making a rifle shootable again.

Making it safe and shootable is one thing.
But calling it a “restoration”, is something else.
Restoration; the action of returning something to a former condition.
Turning a rusted 32 Ford into a hot rod is not a “restoration”.

 

[IanH]

Do either one of you who have admonished me for the use of the word "restoration" actually fail to understand the significance and meaning of my use of quotation marks around the word in the title of this thread?

Do I need to explain that, or can you figure it out on your own?

Or are you just picking something to throw rocks at like many of the others?

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

I want to step back in and say that the OP did a fantastic job of building his piece. I have a complete lack of the skill it takes to do what you did. And the target group speaks for itself. You have yourself a fine shooting, antique ‘resto-mod’ rifle.

I am also rather biased as a collector of antiques. This means I’m not a fan of putting LS engines in original muscle cars.

I was just stating that the gun has lost all collectibility as an antique.

Enjoy your rifle, you have a fine shooting piece that’s 100% unique.

 

[PathfinderNC]

This conversation reminds me of a classic “Antiques Roadshow” episode that went something along these lines; a fellow brought in an original 18th Century Chippendale Highboy (or something like that) which he “restored” himself, he proudly explained. If looked very nice, all clean and shiny.
The good news was that he now owned a nice $3,000 antique cabinet.
The bad news was that he originally had a $300,000 period piece of American furniture.

 

[IanH]

If you have a rusted out original '32 Ford missing a few parts sitting in a field, preserve it or restore it.

If it's stripped down in the back of a junkyard, unfinished, body notched and chopped, louvers punched in every body panel, and a rusted-seized 350 long block under the hood held in with blocks of wood, do you send it to the crusher or do you just finish someone else's thought and make just another cool old "rat rod"?

 

[IanH]

This conversation reminds me of a classic “Antiques Roadshow” episode that went something along these lines; a fellow brought in an original 18th Century Chippendale Highboy (or something like that) which he “restored” himself, he proudly explained. If looked very nice, all clean and shiny.
The good news was that he now owned a nice $3,000 antique cabinet.
The bad news was that he originally had a $300,000 period piece of American furniture.

Ok, be honest. How much would you have paid me to have the rifle as it was before I worked on it? I know this is about history rather than money but since you brought up dollar value, I would like to know your estimate of what it was worth (to you, at least) then, and now. I suspect not very much either way, and I have about $425 invested in its "restoration" to shootable condition.

 

[BillyC]

I think you did a great job repairing this rifle. My opinion, FWIW is do whatever you want with your rifle.

Too many people thinking they should have a say in how others run their lives. The same people would undoubtedly throw a hissy fit if anyone tried telling them what to do in their lives. I just don’t get it, never have and never will.

 

[IanH]

There is a difference and a midpoint between preserving historical artifacts found in their original condition as such, and doing whatever you want because it happens to be yours and everyone else be damned. I believe in being responsible and conservative, but I also take a realistic approach to valuing anything based on the condition it is actually in. I didn't know this was an Ohio rifle but it doesn't matter, I knew it was made in the 19th century, was an original, and figured that it was a late flint era, so yes thought twice before working on it but upon closer examination I saw that most of the value as an original or collector had already been destroyed, so might as well try to make a silk purse out of it.

I like it. If any of you don't, that's fine too, but I'm sorry you didn't listen to what your mother told you when were children.

 

[yellowhammer]

Was really into ML's back in the heydays of the 70's and '80s. Was away a while, but got back in after retirement, and joined this forum last Fall. Where did this superior sanctity manure come from? It was a relaxing fun hobby back then. Nobody would have castigated IanH back then! There were no Mujahedeen patrolling around looking for loose hajibs. It's intimidating to to know that you can't ask a question or show work without a cadre of Pharisees and Sadducees tearing their clothes. It's his own personal property and I think he did a good job. IanH, don't leave.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Old guns are meant to be shot, you took an un-shootable old gun and brought it back to shootable and from the pics you done a good job of it. There are some here that disagree, And use their knowledge base and experience to try and force a point that's ok too, (knowledge and experience is a wonderful helpful thing, until it gets to the point as some here forcefully beat their chests, proclaiming I am the word) when it gets to the point of view of should have not done it that way, I disagree based on its your gun, your vision, your time and your money. Nice gun nice job and hope you enjoy many years of shooting it. COLLECTIBALITY AS A NON-SHOOTING SAFE WEAPON HANGING ON A WALL vs. OLD RE-BUILT SHOOTABLE GUN wins in my book every time.

 

[TFoley]

I checked back to see if Meriwether had fulfilled my request to close my account and in the meantime got some photos in the daylight. Since he has not yet, might as well post them for further ridicule before I go.

Genuine, homemade ferric nitrate stain, blushed with a non-correct electric heat gun, two coats of drying oils. Still needs some screw heads shaped and darkened, all the brass nails cleaned up and installed, some patina put on the brass in the spots where I had to remove it, and some darkening done to the appropriate areas and especially to blend the Acra-Glas fill into the wood around the lock plate, barrel breech, and front bit of the tang.

Just to tee-off the purists (not really, but it no doubt will) I coned the muzzle with a boring bar with the bore center itself indicated true on both ends via 4-jaw chuck and outboard spider (it was pretty deeply and deliberately if not very accurately coned to begin with) and installed a stainless-steel TH liner....with a screwdriver slot in it.

I know the browning touch up on the top and right barrel flat and tang sucks because it's way too smooth and light so I will redo it with LMF rust-pit-in-a-bottle so it woll better match the 200 years of crusty rust on the rest of the barrel that I was actually quite careful to preserve.
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Well, I like it, but if what I know about your hundreds of different county gunmakers, and their multitude of styles and forms, were to be converted into dynamite, there wouldn't be enough to blow an eyelash off. Over here in UK there are a thriving number of businesses concerned with saving old cars from the 20's through to the late 50's - no doubt there are the same kind of people in the US, although most of those I've seen seem determined to convert a lovely old Chrysler Airflow into a pavement-eating metallic purple hot-rod.

All you nay-sayers, just be thankish that IanH didn't make it into a carbon-fibre-stocked holographic-sighted bull-pup-style in-line monstrosity, retaining only the hole down the barrel as an original part.

 

[brushblind]

Well that's me. overdeveloped sense of self righteousness
So why did you hack this thing to bits if you had no idea what it was? The cheek piece is dead nuts Ohio as is the triggerguard and side plate. Too late now. It's a hacked up piece of accraglassed junk now. Good job.....FUBAR.

---

I think it was beyond being preserved as an Ohio rifle as it was hacked up long ago, the perc. lock was not the original but more of a Hawken style lock slopped together most likely before our time. I'm not butt hurt at all about what he's trying to do and he'll learn something new and useful along the way. Sounds like he's pretty knowledgeable already.

 

[Okie Hog]

It's intimidating to to know that you can't ask a question or show work without a cadre of Pharisees and Sadducees tearing their clothes. It's his own personal property and I think he did a good job.

Yes!!!!

Ian, pay no attention to the naysayers. The rifle is beautiful.

Way back when my Dad taught me to mind my own business. Some here were never so lucky.

BTW: 60 years ago i fired three cylinders of a new in box first generation single action Colt. My GF at the time fired the other three cylinders. The thing sold for five figures in 2021.

 

[brushblind]

Do either one of you who have admonished me for the use of the word "restoration" actually fail to understand the significance and meaning of my use of quotation marks around the word in the title of this thread?

Do I need to explain that, or can you figure it out on your own?

Or are you just picking something to throw rocks at like many of the others?

I hope your not leaving the forum, some of us appreciate your talents!

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

There are right and wrong ways to do these types of things. What we see here is the wrong way. Views on preserving originals has radically changed since hacker Martin's day. These days we stabilize with out doing any harm. Did you really need a gun to shoot so bad you had to destroy this one?
The proper way would have been to glue wood into the places that need repair. It can be done invisibly, I have done it many times
There was no reason to change out the breech plug with this long replacement. Especially using gobs of black accraglass. Finding another old percussion lock that fit the mortise correctly would have been a good idea, or leave the one on it that is already there chances are it was put there during the rifles actual working life. I don't have any words for globing a new flintlock in with black accraglass that's a new one on me.
You haters just keep hating on me, I'm used to it.

 

[springfield art]

Taint that the truth.

Although, some things are simply too far gone, not really historically significant, or just common; if it was pulled from the foundation of Lincoln's log cabin, you'd treat as a hallowed relic; but the many thousands of discarded 'junkers' are simply that and the owner can do as he wishes.

 

[brushblind]

There are right and wrong ways to do these types of things. What we see here is the wrong way. Views on preserving originals has radically changed since hacker Martin's day. These days we stabilize with out doing any harm. Did you really need a gun to shoot so bad you had to destroy this one?
The proper way would have been to glue wood into the places that need repair. It can be done invisibly, I have done it many times
There was no reason to change out the breech plug with this long replacement. Especially using gobs of black accraglass. Finding another old percussion lock that fit the mortise correctly would have been a good idea, or leave the one on it that is already there chances are it was put there during the rifles actual working life. I don't have any words for globing a new flintlock in with black accraglass that's a new one on me.
You haters just keep hating on me, I'm used to it.

I think hate is a strong word and I appreciate your knowledge and experience on the forum. I don't think they're any "haters" here and love hearing the differing opinions.