Reddish Finish

[Col. Batguano]

I'm getting ready to think about finish on my Lehigh that has been almost 20 months in the building. Staining is one of those; ok, take a deep breath. Here we go, and don't look back moments that are VERY difficult to undo if you goof it up. I like the reddish color that Eric Von Aschwege gets with adding Genuine Madder Lake pigment to his varnish, (he calls it red violin varnish) but it appears that it fades (or changes color from red to a brown) relatively quickly. Also, a varnish with dye (rather than stain with particulates in it) will have a tendency to not accentuate the curl, and, having curl show through is something I would like to do. I have a lot of raised carving (and a bit if incise stuff too) so I want to be careful not to get varnish buildup in the crevices. Any thoughts?

Aqua Fortis is difficult to control, especially with so many raised features. During the heating process, they will have a tendency to get hotter, (and darker) than the base plain. For the record, I have sugar maple CM-5 wood. There is SOME curl in it, but not a ton. The thing that made it CM-5 was the almost perfect grain direction through the wrist.

 

[galamb]

I have gone for the red finish in the past with the following process without using AQ to bring out the curl.

1) wipe a coat of water based "ebony" stain into the stock with a rag and let it dry.

2) forcefully wipe down the stock with a rough cloth (but not sandpaper) - this removes the water based black from the "hard" parts of the maple and leaves the curl/stripes (softer wood) accentuated.

3) go over that with oil based "cherry" stain. I have used many but have had good luck with the gel stain style (just can't remember immediately if it was Minwax or Varathane). There is also a "light cherry" if you want just a "hint" of red. Use as many coats as needed to suit the colour you are after.

4) when the stain is well dried/cured - minimally 72 hours in very dry conditions - upwards of a week or more certainly doesn't hurt, my topcoat/finish coat is always TruOil (from Birchwood Casey.

Sorry, I have just recently acquired some aniline dye (ruby red from Lee Valley Tools) that I am going to hydrate with alcohol and use in place of the oil/cherry stain in the above process. I just haven't got even to the test phase yet so can not tell you what it will look like. However, I am going that route based on results I have seen from a couple other builders.

I also plan on using the alcohol/dye over AQ.

 

[Col. Batguano]

I see how that would work for the flat areas, but can you get in there tight enough (during step # 2) to get it out of the little crevices in the carving? Some of that stuff is pretty intricate, and using a relatively coarse cloth (like an old pair of jeans) doesn't easily lend itself to fine work.

Since it's water-based, even if the stock WAS whiskered before, it's bound to raise the grain or create a need for another round of whiskering isn't it?

 

[Capt. Fred]

When I use stains to get "that" color I am looking for, I thin the stain way down. I use the LMF alcohol based stains and I will thin them at least 50 - 50 with denatured alcohol. This way I can sneak up on the color I am looking for.

 

[Zonie]

I agree with Capt. Fred.

Alcohol based stains, thinned out at least 50% so the desired color can be sneaked up on.

One light coat of mahogany and several coats of walnut will produce a nice reddish color. Of course, if you want it redder you can apply another mahogany coat.

A quality alcohol based stain will not "muddy" up the curl of the wood or cover the fine grain markings.

Speaking of curl, I think someone is pulling Col. Batguano's leg.

The numbers in a curly maple designation are supposed to represent the amount of curl. At least they do if the wood was bought from a reputable stock company.
IMO, a CM5 stock should have more stripes than the "striped assed ape" my father was fond of talking about when I was growing up.
("He was running faster than a striped assed ape!", one of his favorites.)

As for the stock grain running parallel with the wrist, any good stock will have that feature.
It's part of making a stock correctly and it should be present on everything from a plain wood stock with absolutely no curl at all, to the very curliest stocks they sell.

 

[stuartg]

I was really pleased with Danglers reddish brown stain alone. Surely you can rub it back with alcohol and steel wool to get the shade you want.

 

[galamb]

Since it's water-based, even if the stock WAS whiskered before, it's bound to raise the grain or create a need for another round of whiskering isn't it?

rubbing it down with a coarse cloth "whiskers" it quite well leaving a fairly polished finish.

 

[Vaino]

I don't think you can obtain both the reddish, varnished color and curl standout w/o first staining and then applying the tinted varnish. Many original LRs, especially Lehigh and Bucks County LRs have little or no curl and the tinted varnish imparts a nice reddish color for some highlighting.

I've decided w/ the present build to use ferric nitrate having previuosly tended towards LMF, Dangler and a stain no longer made. The ferric nitrate has yielded a very nice, deep reddish brown on the test blocks , so this will be a first for me.

Formerly the customer determined how much curl was in the blank..... and some wanted a lot and only an expensive quarter sawn blank was suitable. Presently, curl isn't that important and the medium grades of hard red maple blanks from Dunlaps are all that are used......Fred

 

[Spikebuck]

Danger's Reddish-Brown full strength. Obviously one can thin this down if desired. Grade 4 stock.

Highlighted with Klein's Orange Toner and then numerous coats of Tru Oil:

Don't know if that's what you're looking for, but at least you know what that combination can give you.

 

[stuartg]

To give another example of using only Dangler's reddish brown and tru-oil:

 

[Vaino]

Both yours and Spikebuck's rifles have a nice reddish brown color and the curl has also been brought out...but, it's not the reddish color of most of the Lehigh or Bucks County LRs.......Fred

 

[Col. Batguano]

I'm going to try Eric von Aschwege's method for obtaining a "red violin varnish finish" by mulling in some "Genuine Madder Lake" pigment in to some varnish, over a somewhat darker stain to give it a golden-brown under coat. But, try it on test strips first. I probably have 6-8 stains at home to experiment with before I get to the point I'll have the guts to put it on the real stock. Since I have a whole lot of carving on my piece, the curl in the wood is somewhat secondary, but would still be nice to be able to see that it IS there.

Has anyone here ever tried that method, or mulled pigments in to paint before?

 

[Doug Lykins]

On this rifle the reddish color was obtained by first staining it orange/yellow, literally. This was a little unnerving. Then followed up w/ dark brown stain. The look would be somewhat "redder" I suspect if I'd followed the orange with a medium brown stain. Pryor to any staining I gave the stock a lye water treatment to enhance grain. There is a post somewhere on this forum by Zonie on that process.

 

[Doug Lykins]

This is the look you're after? I'll bet orange followed w/ a mahogany would achieve it.

 

[Col. Batguano]

nope. too red.

more like this. http://www.neahkahnieflintlocks.com/red-violin-varnish.html But I want it a little browner.

like this peter kuntz rifle http://www.icollector.com/EXCEPTIONAL-PETER-KUNTZ-FLINTLOCK-ENGRAVED-KENTUCKY-RIFLE_i17332380

I had a similar experience when I was staining / dying my bathroom cabinets. I got the mix all right the first time, and everything matched, Then a couple of the faces got wrecked, and I had to re-finish them. though I used the same formula and order for dying, staining, sealing, and the same underlying colors, the mix and strengths of them I could never get to match. So the lesson is, when you're mixing up batches of diluted dyes and varnishes, you need to preserve the batch (or write down the recipe) for it to come out the same the next time.