Questions on my new half stock caplock

[MedicMike3762]

Hey everyone, I was bored the other night and got to buying things on the internet…..it’s a problem! Either way I stumbled onto what looked to be a well built half stock caplock for what I thought was a fair price. So here are my questions.

1. what style rifle is this? I don’t dare call it a hawken as it is not a hook breech and it’s iron mounted so is a leman trade gun out? It has defiant hawken styling.

2. The name on the top of the barrel is M. Buck. I assume it’s the maker. Has anyone heard of him?

3. any thoughts to the origin of parts that could be a potential clue?

4. is this a beach stock???

I currently don’t have it in my possession as it was just posted. I am very anxious to receive this rifle and see what it’s all about! There are lots of unknowns with this as it was for sale in a modern gun shop so the guys didn’t know much about it. It is believed to be a 50 cal? It is a full size gun and the barrel appears to be at least 1”. I know the pics are not great but any thoughts would be helpful? Also looking close the rear sight is marked MDB I also assume it was made by the same guy whos Name is on the barrel. This also leads me to believe that the mountings could be hand forged and looking close at the trigger guard they have a hand forged look. Thanks in advance guys! This community’s knowledge is awesome!

 

[William Sublette]

It was advertised as a Santa Fe Hawken.

But, the Seller couldn't tell me why.

Just said "that's what our appraiser told us".

 

[MedicMike3762]

It was advertised as a Santa Fe Hawken.

But, the Seller couldn't tell me why.

Just said "that's what our appraiser told us".

it was indeed! I don’t think there is anything Santa Fe about it! They told me the widow who brought it into the shops last name was buck so I’m assuming her husband made it. Really curious if anyone knows of a Mr. M Buck?

 

[Dale Lilly]

It was advertised as a Santa Fe Hawken.

But, the Seller couldn't tell me why.

Just said "that's what our appraiser told us".

I have a Santa Fe Hawken. On the top barrel flat it reads "Western Arms Corp". Under that it reads "Santa Fe, NM" Polecat

 

[William Sublette]

This was my conversation with the seller:


Hi, What makes this a Santa Fe Hawken? Can you send more photos of any of the markings, or stamps on the gun? Thanks

Reply:

I took a closer look at the gun, all the markings and engravings are listed in the item description. There is no Manufacture Marking which I can understand your reason for concern. Upon receiving this rifle, our appraisers informed us this was a Hawken Santa Fe and that is where we pulled that information from. I will be the first to admit ignorance when it comes to black powder, so if you would like additional information, maybe there are markings covered by the wood chassis. However, this rifle appears to be put together VERY well, and the last thing I would like to do is to tear it apart and risk damaging any components necessary to its construction.




So anyway, it looks like a nice rifle. Bring us some more photos when you get it.

 

[hanshi]

Whatever model it's supposed to be it is a very good looking and well built rifle.

 

[Notchy Bob]

@MedicMike3762 ,

You got yourself a nice rifle! It looks well put together, and I really like the shading on the wood, and the patina on the metal.

However, I am very confident in saying it is not a Santa Fe Hawken. Those were production built and your rifle has all the earmarks of one built by a skilled and creative independent craftsman. I’m unable to post a link with the device I’m using at the moment, but if you look up the GRRW Collectors website and go to their “Heyday of the Hawken” page, you’ll find everything you need to know about the Santa Fe Hawken.

I’m not familiar with a builder named Buck, but the man had some talent.

I’m not certain of the species of wood in that stock, either. It may be cherry or maybe straight grained maple with a reddish stain. I don’t believe it’s beech, which would be an unusual choice for a small-time craftsman, although it is used a lot on lower-end production guns. I think I see some cracks consistent with “wind shakes” in the forearm of your stock. Not necessarily a problem unless they open up. You might even consider having the barrel glass bedded at some point to strengthen the wood. The buttstock has a very long, rakish toe, which is a potential weak spot. You’ll want to be careful with it.

I would agree, the trigger guard and buttplate appear hand made, to very simple patterns. I can’t identify the lock. The engraved border line around the perimeter of the lock plate is nice, but unusual.

It sounds as if the seller knew very little about this specific rifle, or muzzleloders in general. It may or may not be fifty caliber… The best way to find out might be with pin gauges. The barrel has thick walls, typical of old rifles but you’ll likely find the rifle is heavy, by today’s standards. The brass plate dovetailed into the top flat must be the builder’s serial number. Another unusual feature, but nicely executed.

Again, it looks like a very well-built handmade rifle, and it has a lot of character. I hope you’ll enjoy it, and share more information when you find it.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[MedicMike3762]

@MedicMike3762 ,

You got yourself a nice rifle! It looks well put together, and I really like the shading on the wood, and the patina on the metal.

However, I am very confident in saying it is not a Santa Fe Hawken. Those were production built and your rifle has all the earmarks of one built by a skilled and creative independent craftsman. I’m unable to post a link with the device I’m using at the moment, but if you look up the GRRW Collectors website and go to their “Heyday of the Hawken” page, you’ll find everything you need to know about the Santa Fe Hawken.

I’m not familiar with a builder named Buck, but the man had some talent.

I’m not certain of the species of wood in that stock, either. It may be cherry or maybe straight grained maple with a reddish stain. I don’t believe it’s beech, which would be an unusual choice for a small-time craftsman, although it is used a lot on lower-end production guns. I think I see some cracks consistent with “wind shakes” in the forearm of your stock. Not necessarily a problem unless they open up. You might even consider having the barrel glass bedded at some point to strengthen the wood. The buttstock has a very long, rakish toe, which is a potential weak spot. You’ll want to be careful with it.

I would agree, the trigger guard and buttplate appear hand made, to very simple patterns. I can’t identify the lock. The engraved border line around the perimeter of the lock plate is nice, but unusual.

It sounds as if the seller knew very little about this specific rifle, or muzzleloders in general. It may or may not be fifty caliber… The best way to find out might be with pin gauges. The barrel has thick walls, typical of old rifles but you’ll likely find the rifle is heavy, by today’s standards. The brass plate dovetailed into the top flat must be the builder’s serial number. Another unusual feature, but nicely executed.

Again, it looks like a very well-built handmade rifle, and it has a lot of character. I hope you’ll enjoy it, and share more information when you find it.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Notchy Bob,

thank you for your very thorough write up and assessment. That is a great point you make about the stock species. I was told that the cracking is completely filled and smooth to the touch. The bore was reported as being 1.3mm in diameter, so I assume 50. I’m extremely excited to get this long gun in my hands and git a more detailed look. Also not sure if it is visible on my photos but the lock has a B engraved on the center of the lock plate. There appears to be a ton of metal left on the barrel as you pointed out. I plan on shooting it first however it has crossed my mind to have it opened up to something like a .62 cal by Mr. Hoyt. That could be fun! But that is just an idea! Thanks again for you thoughts and assessment!

 

[user 48679]

If it's home made, the stock wood was most likely something the maker had on hand.

IMO, the wood looks a lot like Sycamore or Birch - but I'm no wood expert.

 

[rmark]

Possibly a Uberti Santa Fe Hawken, M, Buck probably the original owner. They were considered one of the more accurate Hawken reproductions. The earlier production guns had .53 barrels, as apparently did the original they used as a sample.

 

[Grenadier1758]

But the rifle pictured in the original post is not an Uberti Santa Fe Hawken. For starters, it has a drum and nipple, no snail. The caliber is not described as a 53 (or 54). The original Santa Fe Hawkens were made by Western Arms and heavily marked. The shape of the wedge escutcheons is wrong.

The above being said, the rifle pictured appears to be a well made plains rifle replica. English or Leman scroll guard rifles would have more of the hand forging smoothed over. It is a rifle that I would enjoy shooting.