Portugesse and Japanesse matchlocks

[Itegorm]

Here is a question for all of us out there. All of us have heard the tale of the Tageshimias in Japan being inspired by portugeese matchlocks, so does anybody know of any portugeese matchlocks that resemble the Tageshimas? It is something that a friend of mine brough up to me the other day and I was just curious. Has this already been discussed here? Maybe a new line of research?

 

[arilar]

And may I extend the question? Is there any portugise matchlock-pistol still around that were model for the Japanese matchlock-pistol??
ARILAR :grin: :thumbsup:

 

[benvenuto]

Never heard of any. I have seen photos of sculptures from Benin representing Portugese soldiers and the guns they have look very similar to the Japanese ones...

 

[robinghewitt]

Let's make it easier still :hmm:

How many complete lock, stock and barrel sets survive pre-Mary Rose 1546?

Can I count them on my fingers or do I need to take my socks off? :grin:

 

[benvenuto]

I am pressuming you still have all your fingers after your mottled history with things that go BOOM? :haha:

 

[spitfire]

Toes will do nicely. :blah: Seriously,how early were their trading posts in main land china?Might be some chinese illustrations? :hmm:

 

[spitfire]

Check out this Arkebuse um 1525 Link-German forward Snapping Lock-1525Looks very similar to Japanese Matchlocks :hmm:.Curiously the trigger is on the side.There is one more gun with same lock mechanism displayed at the bottom of the page.If you check out the rest of the site you see "cheek"stocks.Thanks Robert/Sfl for the link posting! :grin:

 

[benvenuto]

very VERY interesting....
especially the painted stock... :hatsoff:

 

[robinghewitt]

Well done that man :bow: . :thumbsup: . :hatsoff:

I didn't think any aquebii survived, I just copied all the pics in case that site goes away :shocked2:

Love the side button, so wonderfully simple.

That's one down, only nine to go before I de-sock :grin:

 

[spitfire]

You bet I copied also! :v Photos seperate and pages with total(Specs very important)information! :winking:

 

Admittedly, these are conjecture on my part, but, I believe that each is a possibility.

1.] What if the matchlocks traded by the Portugese were an early form of the Petronel?

2.] Or if the Portugese traded damaged matchlocks? Say the stocks were broken or rotted off leaving just the wrist for a grip?

3.] What if the first Japanese to be taught the use of matchlocks were archers? The matchlock and the bow are long distance weapons, and there is little difference from looking down the shaft of an arrow or the barrel of a long gun. And a buttstock would definitely be cumbersome to an archer. Consider the similarities in stance for the archer and the matchlock shooter, one arm extended, one hand to the cheek.

CP

 

[spitfire]

The europeans likewise would have earlier on went for the tiller/stock of the crossbow/pellet bow as one of many stock options.This design precluded the firearm.Those early crossbow stocks were cheek stocked and also they used leaf/v-spring for the sear trigger lever(think of in stock or side mounted forward acting Serpentine on early arquebus/matchlock firearm variants:hmm.The Zen and the art of archery school mindset(It took twenty years minimium to master the discpline zen of the Japanese Bow)of the Japanese would naturally I expect rapidly adapt/adopt to a cheek tiller stocked firearm(not to the very least the custom minded Samurai).As to sale of damaged goods by europeans the katana to the neck would be a very real trade possiability :shocked2: !Just food for thought. :hmm:

 

[robinghewitt]

I must be missing something here, what is the problem with the Japs simply copying Portugese, cheek stocked guns?

 

The supposed lack of an original example? I have to wonder how many labeled Spanish, may be in fact Portugese.

CP

 

As to sale of damaged goods by europeans the katana to the neck would be a very real trade possiability :shocked2: !Just food for thought. :hmm:

Ahh, But how would someone, who never saw one, know it was missing the buttstock, especially if the ship's carpenter had removed the damage area, worked it somth and slapped a new coat of paint on it. Not to mention, when hanging it the rigging, it would be alot easier to handle a long gun without a buttstock.

CP

 

[robinghewitt]

The supposed lack of an original example? I have to wonder how many labeled Spanish, may be in fact Portugese.

But it takes a miracle for anything to survive, history is much better at destroying than preserving.

I don't think the lack of originals is a problem. Can't we be grateful the Japan closed it's borders and allowed their uninventive mindset to give us a glimpse of 1500 Portuguese musketry? :thumbsup:

 

[spitfire]

I suppose in a single instance maybe a little carpenter's doctoring may have passed,but with Japanese cultural zenophobia and custom of the time you just didn't simply sail into port and trade without a non offensive introduction(Edict on Japanese terms).The Japanese would have been very aware for security reasons all arms aboard any european vessels.The cheek stock arms would have been easily adapted into there ethos of martial training KATA(even though there were some samurai that even late as the 19th century considered firearms dishonorable and fit for renegades).The japanese also had crossbows.Yes,I also have wondered the same about Spanish labeled firearms.

 

[spitfire]

The supposed lack of an original example? I have to wonder how many labeled Spanish, may be in fact Portugese.

But it takes a miracle for anything to survive, history is much better at destroying than preserving.

I don't think the lack of originals is a problem. Can't we be grateful the Japan closed it's borders and allowed their uninventive mindset to give us a glimpse of 1500 Portuguese musketry? :thumbsup:

I agree.

 

[spitfire]

I gleaned further Information on the original inquiry of this post.From the Japan Patent Attorneys Association-"Nobunaga oda, a powerful warlord who rose to ascendancy in 16th century Japan,used muskets as an effective weapon in his bid to reunify the nation.The first musket was introduced to Japan in 1543 by a Portuguese Castaway whose ship was stranded(1542)on Tanegashima Island,off Kyushu.At that time,Japan was in the middle of the Sengoku period, and provincial warlords threw themselves into a fierce race to obtain this powerful weapon(Teppo).As a result,the modern technology of musket manufacturing quickly spread throughout Japan.The speed of the spread of this technology was breathtaking,enough to surprise the Portuguese,who came back to Japan two years later to witness the mass production of at Osaka,Sakai and other areas.This indicates that metal working technology used in japanese sword making was already fairly advanced and was readily applicable to musket production,as can be seen from the overlapping of production centers of swords and muskets.As a result of the fierce competition between warlords to obtain this epoch-making new weapon,Japan became one of the leading musket production countries in the world.This however had little impact on other aspects of life in Japan,as the technology acquired through the arrival of the musket was kept under wraps by warlords as their top military secret instead of being turned into public knowledge."From Kyushu tourism-"Tanegashemia Island-The first gun seen in Japan was a musket that a Portuguese sailor brought ashore in Tanegashemia in 1543.A Portuguese musket and the first gun ever made in Japan are among exhibits at a museum in Nishino-omote,a city in the north of the Island." :hmm:

 

[spitfire]

The supposed lack of an original example? I have to wonder how many labeled Spanish, may be in fact Portugese.

CP

The Spanish conguered and unified Portugal with spain in 1580? this lasted for around a hundred years. :winking: