Penny Knife for Patches?

[Stophel]

Black Hand, is this a spring back knife, or a friction folder? I have seen photos of several old knives of this style, but never can tell if they're spring back or not. They sometimes look as if they're handled about like a razor. I was always unsure of the date of them, and recently I ran across a 1742 image that APPEARS to show one of this type. And also a very neat book-shaped box!

 

[Black Hand]

Black Hand, is this a spring back knife, or a friction folder? I have seen photos of several old knives of this style, but never can tell if they're spring back or not. They sometimes look as if they're handled about like a razor. I was always unsure of the date of them, and recently I ran across a 1742 image that APPEARS to show one of this type. And also a very neat book-shaped box!

View attachment 3638

It is a spring-back with a fairly heavy spring. It will take and keep an edge very well, even while dressing a deer. I believe I paid $15-20 and it has been worth the investment.

Interesting picture - do you have more information?

 

[Stophel]

Nope. All I have is the detail, and that it's from 1742. Other than that, I know nothing. Appears to be a street vendor.

 

[Black Hand]

Nope. All I have is the detail, and that it's from 1742. Other than that, I know nothing. Appears to be a street vendor.

Interesting nonetheless - Thanks for posting!

 

[Coot]

Excellent points on period Barlow knives!

Since this is out of my area, I wonder if a modern Barlow could be "re-made" to be period correct?

Gus

While some believe that the "Barlow" may have originated in England well before 1840, as a single blade with a large bolster and 'pear' shaped handles, what we in the present refer to as a "barlow" type has a much more modern & complex (relatively speaking) construction than one from the 18th c. It would be easier to buy/make a PC version than to try to remake a modern knife to look something the older style.

 

[Stophel]

Barlow was a knife making family in England. In the 18th century, they (and everyone else) made knives of this basic style.

The bolsters are THIN, and forged integrally with the liners. This was the general practice until well into the 19th century. Sometimes the bolsters are shorter. Along about 1800, nail notches begin to be added to the blades.

An early 19th century Barlow knife:

An image from "Explanation or key to the various manufacturies of Sheffield", by Joseph Smith, 1816.

A knife by Samuel Barlow, who worked from 1787, at least, and worked into the 1830's.

I would dare say this knife was from closer to 1830 than 1787, but you can see it still has the characteristic long, thin, integral iron bolsters. I can offer no information for periods later than this.

 

[Eutycus]

Okay, I'll be the one to ask. How did a penny knife get its name? How many pennies did such a knife cost?

 

[Grenadier1758]

I think that we all agree that the blade must be sharp and hold a razor edge. When I use a folding knife, i want one that I can open with one hand. Loading from a pouch and one hand is holding the barrel, a ball, and a strip of patching at the muzzle, the last thing you want to consider is how to use two hands to open the knife.

That Penney knife pictured offers a grip of the blade so a flick of the wrist can open it. The ball ends can be opened by setting the ball end on your breeches and pulling it open. Some can be opened with thumb pressure. In all cases, don't forget, that blade is sharp.

Yes, folding knives are known in the 18th century.

 

[Artificer]

The folding knife I carry in my bag. Purchased at Ft. Union a few years ago. Horn scales over brass, 4 1/8" blade and 9 1/2" overall when open View attachment 3637 .

Is that what was called a "Mediterranean Style" Folder? I had an original something like that many years ago, but since it was not a spring back and it would close/open so easily, I traded it off before I hurt myself.

Gus

 

[Black Hand]

Is that what was called a "Mediterranean Style" Folder? I had an original something like that many years ago, but since it was not a spring back and it would close/open so easily, I traded it off before I hurt myself.

Gus

Sorry Gus - I don't know.

 

[Stophel]

Knives of that general style were, and are still common in Italy, Spain, and France. Best I can ascertain, they were also made/sold in England 250 years ago. ???

This is one that supposedly has the British broad arrow mark on the blade:

whether it is really so or not, I don't know. Until I saw the 1742 image I posted, I had serious doubts about these... and I'm still not really certain.

 

[Artificer]

Sorry Gus - I don't know.

Had to scratch my head and do some looking around to remember more on that, as I've not looked up the information in many years.

I was thinking of what sometimes was called a Mediterranean Style and may be more correctly called a "Spanish Muela Folding Knife," after looking them up. The general handle and blade style is very similar to your knife. I guess one might call them the Spanish version of the Barlow Knife and were traded all over the place in the 18th century.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Knives of that general style were, and are still common in Italy, Spain, and France. Best I can ascertain, they were also made/sold in England 250 years ago. ???

This is one that supposedly has the British broad arrow mark on the blade:
View attachment 3649
whether it is really so or not, I don't know. Until I saw the 1742 image I posted, I had serious doubts about these... and I'm still not really certain.

That is the general kind I was referring to and they do indeed go back to the 18th century.

Gus

 

[Black Hand]

Knives of that general style were, and are still common in Italy, Spain, and France. Best I can ascertain, they were also made/sold in England 250 years ago. ???

This is one that supposedly has the British broad arrow mark on the blade:
View attachment 3649
whether it is really so or not, I don't know. Until I saw the 1742 image I posted, I had serious doubts about these... and I'm still not really certain.

Had to scratch my head and do some looking around to remember more on that, as I've not looked up the information in many years.

I was thinking of what sometimes was called a Mediterranean Style and may be more correctly called a "Spanish Muela Folding Knife," after looking them up. The general handle and blade style is very similar to your knife. I guess one might call them the Spanish version of the Barlow Knife and were traded all over the place in the 18th century.

Gus

This is excellent information - My thanks to you and Stophel!
What is like is that the blade is thin with a little flex - it isn't one of those heavy/clunky blades like one see on the Soldier's knife reproductions.

 

[Newtire]

I'll bet they used whatever they had around to work with. If it was of material that was available back in those days, let your imagination guide you in determining what is "correct".

 

[Black Hand]

I'll bet they used whatever they had around to work with. If it was of material that was available back in those days, let your imagination guide you in determining what is "correct".

Please take this in the spirit in which it was given, but it really doesn't work that way. Knives were commercially-made in bulk in defined styles & patterns that corresponded to certain/specific geographic areas or countries, shipped/sold by the hundreds of thousands....

 

[Straekat]

Until the early 19th century, manufacturing steel required more time and resources than making iron. Consequently, it was more expensive. If you were part of the common folk and had a knife, chances are it was made of iron, not steel.

Iron knives can be sharpened but how long they keep an edge depends on what they are used on. The traditional way Europeans (and Americans) put a sharp edge on a knife is by sharpening both sides. That is double-bevelling.

The single bevel sharpening method is not a common historical method in the "west" although it is in China and Japan. A single bevel is sharpened on one side only, while the other side of the blade is flat. A single bevel edge is narrower in profile than a double-bevel and can be much sharper. The single bevel method works very well for patch knives, although it is probably not historically correct.

Some have commented on "sawing" through patches, and part of that may be due to the angle the edge is sharpened to, and the angle held on while cutting the patch. A double bevel edge will work but requires a sharp edge and consistent use of the knife to cut the patch. A single bevel on the other hand allows the user to place the flat side on the face of the muzzle and cut through the patch in a consistent manner. It may not be HC, but it would be the same tool, but sharpened and used in a slightly different manner.

After commenting on the use of iron tools during the 18th century, craftsmen in particular were able to achieve remarkable results using tools made from soft iron and arguably of lesser metallurgical quality than cheap tools bought at outlets such as Harbor Freight. I suspect 18th century tool users learned to sharpen tools not only well, but often, and to take care of them more than we do today.

 

[Straekat]

Please take this in the spirit in which it was given, but it really doesn't work that way. Knives were commercially-made in bulk in defined styles & patterns that corresponded to certain/specific geographic areas or countries, shipped/sold by the hundreds of thousands....

That would be very true of the factory system developed in Britain during the Industrial Revolution (starting circa 1750, and circa 1800/1810 in the US). Before then, and in France, Spain and Italy which were primarily agricultural societies at the time, the small shop system was the norm, and it wasn't until circa 1800 that changes in production started to kick in.

The German states developed in a slightly different manner than the UK model. Small states with localized resources began using specialization of resource production (iron, coal, and iron/steel production centers), and trading networks to produce the metal ingots required by factories cranking out specialized products. "Solingen" was a regional metal working center were several firms made primarily knives, swords, and a limited range of other metal wares. These ventures were often co-operatives that subcontracted work out to firms that were sometimes competitors, and through social and marriage ties formed a organization that could crank out hundreds of thousands of very similar looking products for trade throughout continental European countries and their colonies.

 

[Black Hand]

That would be very true of the factory system developed in Britain during the Industrial Revolution (starting circa 1750, and circa 1800/1810 in the US). Before then, and in France, Spain and Italy which were primarily agricultural societies at the time, the small shop system was the norm, and it wasn't until circa 1800 that changes in production started to kick in.

The German states developed in a slightly different manner than the UK model. Small states with localized resources began using specialization of resource production (iron, coal, and iron/steel production centers), and trading networks to produce the metal ingots required by factories cranking out specialized products. "Solingen" was a regional metal working center were several firms made primarily knives, swords, and a limited range of other metal wares. These ventures were often co-operatives that subcontracted work out to firms that were sometimes competitors, and through social and marriage ties formed a organization that could crank out hundreds of thousands of very similar looking products for trade throughout continental European countries and their colonies.

I don't disagree, but even regional shops would tend to make something that was distinctive for particular area - perhaps a little variation on a theme happened but still characteristic enough to be identified to a specific place/time.

 

[Bo T]

"

The single bevel sharpening method is not a common historical method in the "west" although it is in China and Japan. A single bevel is sharpened on one side only, while the other side of the blade is flat. A single bevel edge is narrower in profile than a double-bevel and can be much sharper. The single bevel method works very well for patch knives, although it is probably not historically correct.

I have read that a single bevel was used extensively by Native Americans as it worked more effectively at skinning game than the double bevel. As such it would have been used more often than we might realize.​