Pa Flintlock Season?

[Stringbean]

I have hunted for a few years here in Pa's late flintlock season and have never really read the regulations closely, until today. The law states that: ".44 caliber or larger, or hanguns .50 caliber or larger with a flintlock ignition system. The firearm must be an original or reproduction of a gun used prior to 1800"

I am still quite new to this whole thing and I'm wondering if the majority of flinters being used (mine included) don't meet this criteria.

I hunt with a Hawken style mainly. But from what I understand Samuel and Jacob were post 1800 gunsmiths.

Also, were most early eastern flintlocks prior to 1800 in calibers less than .44?

This leaves me to wonder what rifles, original or replica would meet the criteria for the current regulations?

Do I need to change rifles or do the regulations need to be changed?

 

[Rusty_Nail]

The firearm must be an original or reproduction of a gun used prior to 1800"

It says single barrel long guns manufactured prior to 1800, or "similar" reproduction.

That word similar covers a lot of ground.

 

[Stringbean]

This is what the Pa game commission website states. Maybe the printed publication reads differently. I didn't see the wording "similar" anywhere.

Flintlock Muzzleloader Season: Only single-barrel long-guns .44 caliber or larger, or hanguns .50 caliber or larger with a flintlock ignition system. The firearm must be an original or reproduction of a gun used prior to 1800, with iron, open "V" or notched sights (fiber-optic inserts are permitted). A flintlock ignition system consists of a hammer containing a naturally-occurring stone which is spring-propelled onto an iron or steel frizzen, which, in turn, creates sparks to ignite a gunpowder. Flintlock muzzleloader hunters may use "any single projectile," including sabots, and mini and maxi balls.

 

[nkbj]

The rest of the country is fortunate that they have the reg.
Thanks PA!

 

[palonghunter]

The way the rules are written, it sounds like people should be using nothing but fullstock longrifles, but the way the rules are actually enforced, as long as its a .44 or larger flintlock with open sights, you're fine.

 

[Grenadier1758]

For a long time, T/C made a 56 caliber smooth rifle based on the T/C Hawken called the Pennsylvania Hunter. At the time only hunting with smooth bore guns was allowed under the hunting code. It fit the "similar" requirement.

 

[Rusty_Nail]

SB,

Here is what Pa. Code says under § 141.43. Deer.

I believe the term "similar" was added for the reasons stated above about the TCs, as well as CVAs and Traditions "plains style" rifles.

Additionally, many could not afford to meet the requirement if they had to have an original or pre-1800 reproduction, i.e. longrifle. And the PGC is all about participation numbers and $$!

§ 141.43. Deer

(b) Flintlock muzzleloading deer season.

(1) Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt deer during the flintlock muzzleloading deer season with a flintlock muzzleloading firearm. The firearm must be an original or similar reproduction of muzzleloading firearm manufactured prior to 1800. The firearm’s ignition mechanism must consist of a hammer containing a naturally occurring stone that is spring propelled onto an iron or steel frizzen which, in turn, creates sparks to ignite a priming powder. The firearm must have open sights and be a .44 caliber or larger single-barrel long gun or a .50 caliber or larger single-barrel handgun that propels single-projectile ammunition. Included are PRB, bullits, skirted bullets, and them cupped thinges we cannot mention on here!

(2) Prohibitions. While hunting deer during the flintlock muzzleloading deer season, it is unlawful to:

(i) Use manmade materials attached to the hammer or frizzen to create sparks.

(ii) Use telescopic sights.

(iii) Use or possess multiple projectile ammunition or ammunition other than required by section 2322(a)(4) of the act (relating to prohibited devices and methods).

(iv) Use a device not provided for in the act or in this subsection.

 

[Stringbean]

Thank you for your research and responses. Happy Thanksgiving,
String

 

[Trot]

Actually the PA hunter was a roundball twist flintlock rifle, as Pennsylvania only allowed patched roundball, no conicals. They never did require smoothbore. This was later amended to allow different projectiles.

 

[palonghunter]

Additionally, many could not afford to meet the requirement if they had to have an original or pre-1800 reproduction, i.e. longrifle. And the PGC is all about participation numbers and $$$

This is true. Thats why they expanded archery to include crossbows, and why they created the early antlerless muzzleloader season. I wouldn't be surprised if they slowly open things up to allow any ignition system in the late season. They've already dropped the round all requirement and allowed pistols.

 

[Zonie]

After reading the laws, you make a valid point.

Halfstock rifles made prior to 1800 were a rare bird.
So rare that I haven't seen a photo of one which wasn't a halfstock because the long forestock had been broken in some accident.

Even the halfstock rifle adopted by the US Military wasn't made until after 1803. (See Harpers Ferry Model 1803 U.S. Flintlock rifle.)

Ironically, there were a lot of flintlock full stock rifles originally made after 1800. In fact, fullstock flintlocks were very popular thru the mid and late 1820's.

That said, I think the real reason for the way the law is worded is to keep people from making a flintlock with a modern HP rifle type stock from being used. Something like a Weatherby with a flintlock grafted to the side of it.
They want to keep the firearms period correct to the American flintlock era.


IMO, the law should be changed to drop the reference to 1800 or, if the actual intent of the law is to keep out flintlocks with modern stocks the law should be changed to read, "...prior to 1840..."

On the plus side for folks like you that wish to use a flintlock halfstock similar to those used during the Mountain Man fur trapper years damn few regulators of the hunting laws have any idea about when a rifle like a TC Hawken or Lyman GPR existed.

Telling one of these officers, "Sure! This style of rifle was used before 1800. They were pretty common back then.", would satisfy them.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that subject couldn't start a major thread right here on the MLF. :grin:

 

[PA16th]

(just a side note to the law)
I asked a Game Officer at the PA sportsman show at Harrisburg, how many rifles I could hunt with? :hmm:
Answer I got: As many as you want to carry.

Don

 

[Jim Vatt]

If that's their intention (1800), I agree it might as well read full stocked gun. I don't know when they changed it to read ...1800, but it USED TO BE "prior to 1840." I have never heard of anyone wishing to tote their TC Hawken being spoken to by a warden. There was a time when, technically, the use of slings, fiber optic sights, maxi balls, etc., was illegal. So any change wouldn't surprise me. BTW, their current summary booklet (page 42) doesn't seem to reflect this date anymore. Not that you should ever rely totally on their booklets as the final word! I used to know the local WCO very well and he said that to me too many times to count!!!!!

 

[AK in PA]

I've long thought the same thing, that "technically", Hawken style rifles wouldn't be legal. But, 90% of the flintlocks I see in actual use are low cost production Hawkens, and I've never heard of someone being called out on it.

 

[Jim Vatt]

This does bear out a great need for the rock lock hunter to continuously check the PGC's current regs. That first flintlock-only year (1974) was much different than it is today.

Let us hope they haven't gotten that technical. I mean, as far as I know, none of the original guns had coil springs, adjustable sights, fiber optics, synthetic stocks (for those hawken-style guns out there), stainless steel anything, etc., etc., etc.

And let us not forget...black powder substitutes!!!

If they get that literal, there will certainly be chaos...BUT I'LL REMAIN OKAY.

 

[Grumpa]

Hunt with your Hawken Flintlock. I use an 1803 Harpers Ferry (halfstock, replica). It's like Zonie said, they don't want someone coming out with a modern style rifle set up with a flintlock.

You'll find Hawken type rifles advertised in the regulation booklet.

The original regulation setting up the season encouraged period dress, as well, but they don't hold you to that.

And, good hunting. :thumbsup:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

The pgc officially ignores it's own laws and regulations in several respects concerning muzzle loaders. The law has always read 1800 and never 1840. Take notice the regulation also says "open sights" yet the digest they publish says peep sights are permitted. An inliner is permitted so long as it uses a flint on frizzen ignition.
The pgc digest also says any muzzle loader over 44 Cal can be used during the regular fire arms season, but the actual language of the regulation is limited to single barrel flint, percussion or primer ignited muzzle loaders. No double guns, no wheel locks, no scopes.

 

[roundball]

Just as additional info about the .56cal S/B.

I called T/C on September 23, 2005 and directly asked the question about the .56cal smoothbore barrel.

T/C said it was designed specifically for a law passed in Mass., requiring smoothbore ML's only.
The law was dropped in 1983, and T/C stopped production of the .56cal S/B not long after that.

 

[Grumpa]

Roger that the PGC "ignores its own laws and regulations". Better so.

I just figure peep sights are "iron sights" with an "opening" in the middle.

An old friend once used his swivel breech .40 cal. We encountered 2 wardens the first day ever of Flintlock season and they said "We don't care about that, (we were actually outside the Game Land where you had to hunt!) we just want you to have a good time."

I abide by the regs, but I figure it's a big state, and I don't see a warden from one year to the next, even when I hunt game lands. The ones I have encountered weren't interested in trying to catch you up on some mis-interpretation.

If they ever start getting like the fish wardens, I'll just quit hunting.

 

[palonghunter]

I've never been checked by a game warden, even while hunting public land during regular firearms deer season.

There have been times when I wished the PGC took a less lax approach to enforcement though, like when I attempted to turn in a neighbor who was poaching 15-20 deer a year and leaving most of them to rot.