New T/C Lock

[bob4st]

...ya gotta use psychology with them gals.. :bull: .. just tell her she's going in for a "new do"...
Bob

 

[Finnwolf]

Need some expert opinions. I mounted my new T/C lock to my PA Hunter rifle and I noticed something.

[url] http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v719/finnwolf/TCLock.jpg[/url]

With the old lock, my touch hole was just a bit forward of center of the pan. It always bothered me and I thought about it whenver I had a misfire. With the new lock, the touch hole is even more foreward of center of the pan. I know nothing will answer that question better than time at the range but I'm curious what the experts think.
Am I goiyng to ever get optimal ignition with this touch hole placement?

 

[roundball]

You might be very surprised...I have come to believe there might not be as much concern with hole placement as has been constantly repeated over the years because of several variances with with my own vent locations in different stocks I converted from caplock to flintlock.

If you think back to the excellent stills and video's member Pletch has made of pan ignition, you'll note that the igniting pan of flame expands in all directions.

If you look at your photo, you can visualize the expanding cloud of flame & heat hitting the bottom of the frizzen and being double concentrated right there in that area outside your vent...it'll probably go off like greased lightning.

If it doesn't, send it back to TC with your photo, and/or send them the whole rifle and ask them to make it right. (but I'll bet lunch the thing will be very fast)

PS:
Was the vent that "low" in relation to the original lock or is it lower now as a result of this new lock? Personally I'd be more interested in having it an eyelash higher than I would worrying about it being a little forward...I had one where some of the liner was under the pan's edge and shimmed the barrel up with a 6" strip of soft leather...started out as 1/8" thick but compressed to 1/16".

 

[Finnwolf]

I've also always thought the vent was just a little lower (as well as forward) than I would have placed it. Can't say for sure, I have no photos of the old lock but my impression is also that the vent is now a little lower as well as a little forward.
I have never been very happy with the fit and workmanship of this rifle or the 2 previous Hawken rifles I've owned. Both Hawkens I bought used, this one was brand new.
I hope you are right and this rifle suddenly becomes the rifle I thought I was buying 8 years ago. I've had days at the range that were trouble free and other days I'd like to have wrapped it around a tree. I've had days in the woods where it rained all day and the rifle went of without a hitch and I've had 2 instances where deer have walked away when I should have been dragging them out of the woods.
If these problems persist and I send it all back to T/C, what can I realistically expect?

 

[roundball]

I've also always thought the vent was just a little lower (as well as forward) than I would have placed it. Can't say for sure, I have no photos of the old lock but my impression is also that the vent is now a little lower as well as a little forward.
I have never been very happy with the fit and workmanship of this rifle or the 2 previous Hawken rifles I've owned. Both Hawkens I bought used, this one was brand new.
I hope you are right and this rifle suddenly becomes the rifle I thought I was buying 8 years ago. I've had days at the range that were trouble free and other days I'd like to have wrapped it around a tree. I've had days in the woods where it rained all day and the rifle went of without a hitch and I've had 2 instances where deer have walked away when I should have been dragging them out of the woods.
If these problems persist and I send it all back to T/C, what can I realistically expect?

They'll make it right for sure...may just wholesale replace it.
I'm going to make a comment only for the purposes of establishing some reference for confidence...I have accumulated / cobbled together a dozen TC Flintlocks with their redesigned lock assemblies and they all function perfectly, flawlessly, every time.

It would be interesting to see if you can detect a difference in the pan location on the side plate of the new lock, if you hold it close and aligned with one of your other locks...to my knowledge they did not alter the pan location on their redesigned locks.

 

[Finnwolf]

[/quote] It would be interesting to see if you can detect a difference in the pan location on the side plate of the new lock, if you hold it close and aligned with one of your other locks...to my knowledge they did not alter the pan location on their redesigned locks.[/quote]

Can't do - I no longer have the other rifles - sold 'em to help finance the Lancaster I am working on. In hind sight, I probably sold the wrong rifle. One of the Hawkens was a .45 but the stock cracked at the lock bolt hole. The other was a .50 that was very hard to load, rough bore section about 6" south of the muzzle. At least that one was reliable.
I hope you're right about T/C making this right - better yet, I hope you're right and it goes off fast and consistent. I've already had a lifetime's worth of problems with these guns.

 

[roundball]

I hope you're right about T/C making this right.

Without even a worry, if there's something out of spec, wrong, etc, they will fix it at no charge with an apology.

Better yet, I hope you're right and it goes off fast and consistent. I've already had a lifetime's worth of problems with these guns.

If it was me, I'd get the vent up higher...one way to do it is to cut a couple strips of leather from an old pair of leather work gloves;

Remove the barrel;

Temporarily loosen the rear screw and front bolt on the tang a couple turns;

Depending on the thickness, lay enough leather in the barrel channel under the breech & barrel mating area to "raise the vent hole" just above the level of the "top of the pan";

Tighten the front tang bolt (which runs down and threads into the trigger guard for strength now days)...then the rear tang screw.

 

[Finnwolf]

My 8 yr old PA Hunter only has one tang screw. I am hesitant loosen the 1 screw that holds it in place and then put my face behind 90 grains and a ball. I can see T/C telling my widow they are sorry that I modified the gun causing my own fatality.
I would either send the rifle back to T/C to sell it cheap and be done with it.

 

[roundball]

My 8 yr old PA Hunter only has one tang screw. I am hesitant loosen the 1 screw that holds it in place and then put my face behind 90 grains and a ball. I can see T/C telling my widow they are sorry that I modified the gun causing my own fatality.
I would either send the rifle back to T/C to sell it cheap and be done with it.

Sorry, when you said it was new, I assumed you meant new, not 8 years old, which would have meant a Hawken, which has a tang bolt and a tang screw.

I mentioned loosening the screw for the purpose of shimming the barrel, then the last thing I said was tighten the screw back down.

I agree, you should send it back to TC for them to make it right for you.

 

[Finnwolf]

RB,
I went and actually looked at the rifle after my last post and you're right - there are 2 screws in the tang. One may actually even be a bolt that threads down into the trigger guard as you described. That's a whole lot different than my recollection of only one bolt holding it all together.
I'll take it to the range and try it - who knows, it may go off fast and consistent and then I'll have no complaints. If not, I'll try their new touch hole bushing and see if that gives me good ignition.
If all that fails, I'll send it back. Be interesting to see what they'd do - the PA Hunter is long obsolete and has an oct-to-round 1-66 barrel.
Finnwolf

 

[bob4st]

Finnwolf:
I spend a great deal of time in PA and have seen several of those... I like the oct to round look and longer barrel (I think I recall them being a tad bit longer)... never seen another T/C, CVA, Trad., etc., with that cool look... only on Pedersoli Morts...
Good luck,
Bob

 

[Finnwolf]

Finnwolf:
I spend a great deal of time in PA and have seen several of those... I like the oct to round look and longer barrel (I think I recall them being a tad bit longer)... never seen another T/C, CVA, Trad., etc., with that cool look... only on Pedersoli Morts...
Good luck,
Bob

Thanks, Bob. Lot's of us bought the PA Hunter to get a 1 in 66 barrel. At the time, PA was a PRB only state - no other projectiles allowed. I was never satisfied with the accuracy of T/C's 1 in 48 barrels when shooting PRBs - thought I'd do a lot better with the slower twist. In hindsight, I wish I'd just bought a GM drop-in barrel for the Hawken I had. I never did get the accuracy I thought I would with the T/C slow twist and PA allowed conicals a few years ago. If I'd gone the GM drop-in route, I'd now have a barrel for each. I really don't want to shoot conicals but a few people I know who got the GM slow twist claim they are tack drivers.
The PA Hunter came in a carbine version with 21" barrel and the rifle with a 31" barrel. Here's mine...

 

[spud]

Roundball: my T/C penn.hunter flint carbine has a 21"full octagon t/c bbl. came from fox outfitters in 2000 all others i have seen were half round half octagon any insight?--spud

 

[Walks with fire]

The older ones were octagon to round; then they went to straight octagon. These barrels are finicky shooters for sure; and the upgrade lock is a big plus. I still like mine though; I have the octagon to round 31" and the 21" octagon barrels. They are fussy, fussy barrels. My old TC Hawken 1/48 twist was far more consistant with roundballs.

 

[Finnwolf]

I have the octagon to round 31" and the 21" octagon barrels. They are fussy, fussy barrels. My old TC Hawken 1/48 twist was far more consistant with roundballs.

I have to agree, my 31" PA hunter oct-to-rd 1 in 66 shoots no better PRB groups than my 1 in 48 Hawken did and is noticibly less consistent. My Hawken had an occasional flyer, my PA Hunter has a lot of them.

Finnwolf

 

[bob4st]

...I often wonder if those flyer quirks are due to other things such as barrel bed/channel, warped stock, battered PRB, one too many bacon bleucheese burgers w/ onions and hot sauce, etc... burp!... it happens to me too... :grin:
Bob

 

[Finnwolf]

...I often wonder if those flyer quirks are due to other things such as barrel bed/channel, warped stock, battered PRB, one too many bacon bleucheese burgers w/ onions and hot sauce, etc... burp!... it happens to me too... :grin:
Bob

After 8 years, I still do not know. I suspect I do flinch some with all the misfires I've had with it over the years. Once the hammer digs that little trench across the frizzen and the little pieces of flint start flying it's hard to maintain concentration. Or maybe it's the poor touch hole placement causing some of those flashes in the pan. Or maybe it's the way I have to hold the barrel down in the bed to keep it from springing up while I put the wedge in that causes a few of those fliers. Or maybe I use too much powder (90 grns) or the wrong powder (2f Goex) that causes it to foul to the point where I have to swab it every 3rd shot if I don't want to use a hammer to load it.
I've got lot's to do to make this rifle behave but I'm going to focus instead on building a Lancaster I've had on the bench for too long now. If that rifle behaves then this one is headed for a new home.
Finnwolf

 

[paulvallandigham]

...I often wonder if those flyer quirks are due to other things such as barrel bed/channel, warped stock, battered PRB, one too many bacon bleucheese burgers w/ onions and hot sauce, etc... burp!... it happens to me too... :grin:
Bob

After 8 years, I still do not know. I suspect I do flinch some with all the misfires I've had with it over the years. Once the hammer digs that little trench across the frizzen and the little pieces of flint start flying it's hard to maintain concentration. Or maybe it's the poor touch hole placement causing some of those flashes in the pan. Or maybe it's the way I have to hold the barrel down in the bed to keep it from springing up while I put the wedge in that causes a few of those fliers. Or maybe I use too much powder (90 grns) or the wrong powder (2f Goex) that causes it to foul to the point where I have to swab it every 3rd shot if I don't want to use a hammer to load it.
I've got lot's to do to make this rifle behave but I'm going to focus instead on building a Lancaster I've had on the bench for too long now. If that rifle behaves then this one is headed for a new home.
Finnwolf

The " Little trench" you describe indicates clearly that the flint is striking the frizzen at the wrong angle. The new lock from T/C does not do this. The proper angle of contact is 60 degrees, with one leg of the angle being a line along the bottom edge of the flint to the point of contact, which becomes the center point of the angle, and the other arm running from the center point, up to the highest, most rearward point on the top of the face of the frizzen. Use a protractor to diagnose just how " off " the angle is on your lock.

The easiest fix for this is to remove the cock from the lock, then take the top jaw, and flint out of the cock. Now heat the small bend on the goose neck up red hot, and, using pliers, or a hammer, bend the bottom jaw downward to achieve the proper angle. Make a template up to put under the cock while bending it, to show the existing angles and the desired angle, so you can move the jaw enough to correct the problem.

Then after putting the cock back together. remove the frizzen and grind or file the face smooth, or replace it, so that you have a new, smooth surface. That will allow the flint to scrape, rather than gouge, and flint lift will be noticeably improved, the sparks will be thrown into the pan, and you will have far fewer misfires. All that will allow you to finally get rid of that " Flinch ". And, on your new gun, tune the lock the same way from the start. See my article on Shooting and Tuning Flintlocks . Its under " Articles " at the Member Resources section at the top of the forum Index here.

 

[paulvallandigham]

oops

 

[Finnwolf]

Thanks, Paul but I sent the old lock back to T/C and got a new one, so hopefully the geometry is right now.
Now the problem is that the touch hole is even more forward and low than it used to be (see image from earlier post).
Haven't gotten to the range yet to see if it ignites consistently. If it does, I'll keep it as a backup if it doesn't I'm paking it back off to T/C. I bought this gun new - shouldn't be having all the problems I've had with it