MVT French Model 1733 Pistol

[bebloomster]

Found this over at Middlesex Village Trading Co. The pics don't look all that bad. Anyone have any experience with this particular pistol? Or other pistols from MVT? Worth buying or just save my bucks? Thanks.

 

[Zonie]

I don't have that pistol, and in fact, I don't have anything from MVT but in my reading here I have arrived at the conclusion that almost all of the guns MVT sell are made in India.

Some of these guns may be shootable but most folks who have responded to questions about guns made in India seem to feel they are of poor quality and shooting them may be somewhat dangerous.

I'll be quite now and let the others who have had hands on experience talk.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

If you just want a pistol to shoot it's probably O.K. But it doesn't look anything like the 1733 French pistol it is supposed to resemble. The real pistol, like a great many French weapons, is a graceful and elegant thing. And, like most of the Indian made guns, this one probably weighs almost twice what the real one would.

You get what you pay for as a wise man once said. :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

It's a cartoon rendition of the original.

 

[bebloomster]

Thanks guys.... I think I'll save my bucks instead of buying this one.

 

[torn moc]

Have you looked at Loyalist arms & repairs? http://www.loyalistarms.com/
they have some nice guns...I had a couple...
good prices...you must drill the touchhole..
no Biggie...

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

And there is also Military Heritage. But the same facts apply to all these Indian guns: the quality is spotty and they don't much resemble the guns they are claimed to resemble. As Mike said, they're cartoon renditions of the originals.

 

[rabjr]

We really need one those smiley icons holding his nose for these kind of threads.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Now that is a very good idea! :thumbsup:

 

[Cmabie]

I have an MTV heavy dragoon pistol. It is well made and shoots perfectly, but not like a target pistol as it is a smooth bore. Other than being polished more than the originals it is very authentic. The workmanship is on about par for the 18th century, as I have an original T. Ketland and Sons, London, horse pistol that does not appear to be better made. Some of the Italian replicas are pretty, but made too perfect. They do not look like the originals as there are no file marks and the stocks are too perfet, not showing the earmarks of being hand made.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

MVT lists the weight of their heavy Dragoon pistol at 4 pounds, give or take. Heavy Dragoon is right--the originals weigh 2.8 pounds, give or take. There are in fact differences in style and detail between the Indian guns and the real ones, but the weight difference surely stands out.

I'm not sure that comparing the fit and finish on a well used 250 year old pistol to a newly made Indian replica and deciding that the workmanship is the same says anything good about the Indian made gun. I realize that some folks buy these guns and consider them a great bargain. But at $300.00 each I think they are getting into a price range where that is hardly true anymore. :v

 

[colmoultrie]

I have an MVTC Scottish Pistol. Yes, they are made in India. No, I did not have to drill the touch hole, and yes, it was made to shoot. The fit of the gun is not as nice as the examples available in museums, but I have shot it with 35gr. of FFFg under a .490 PRB, and aside from not being able to hit squat past 7 yards - but what do you expect from a smoothbore with no sights - I'm pretty happy with it.

There's no wood on it, so the weight difference isn't an issue here.

It certainly shoots better than the nice kit I haven't had a chance to put together yet! :shake: As for authenticity, it does look similar to the example pictured in Troiani's book on Soldiers of the American Revolution - the photo of the original; not his painting. How similar depends on how closely you examine the two. I'd love to do a side-by-side comaparison in person. :grin:

 

[Mike Brooks]

That's probably the nicest India made gun I've seen. :thumbsup:

 

[Wes/Tex]

Those pistols weren't made for target work. Scottish pistols were fired and hurled at the head of the opposition just far enough away to leave time to drag out some serious swords! :haha:

 

[Tom Carr]

I ordered the Long Sea Service model from Military Heritage a few days ago. When It arrives Im going to have it drilled for the touchhole and proof fired by a gunsmith. I'll post pics and my inital impressions about it first. After Ive fired it a bit I'll post an offical review.

 

[bebloomster]

Will be interested in your observations... especially as to fit and finish.

 

[Zonie]

Jacklord:

Make sure your gunsmith knows the in's and out's or black powder and flintlocks.

Many gunsmiths are quite good at working with modern guns but they don't know squat about flintlocks and what it takes to shoot them.

Also, there is practically no published information on what the correct proof charge for a muzzleloading pistol is. In fact, except for the published information in the Dixie Gunworks Catalog I know of no other.
(see STANDARD MUZZLELOADING CHARGES,
1887 MUZZLELOADING PROOF LOADS
Provisional Proof, Definitive Proof )

Those proof charges appear to be intended for shotguns, not pistols so they may be much more than what is really needed.

For instance, a .710 caliber(13 guage) charge that is listed is 328 grains of powder under a 493 grain bullet for the Provisional Proof! :shocked2:
It shows a powder charge of 178 grains under 729 grains (1 2/3 oz) of shot as the Definitive Proof for the 13 guage and a Service Load of 89 grains of powder under 547 grains (1 1/4 oz) of shot.

Obviously not a pistol load.

Anything I say is just a wild guess about the proper load for your pistol but, if I were guessing I would think of the following:

A large number of the Definitive Proof loads they show for the powder charge are twice the service powder charge load.
The projectile of the Definitive Proof loads are 1.333 times the service load.

As getting a projectile that weighs 1.333 times the service weight of the projectile for your gun might be almost impossible I would suggest that you have the gunsmith test your gun using twice the load that you will ever use, using 3Fg powder under a tightly patched service ball that you intend to shoot.
While this is a little less than a real Definitive Proof load would be it is probably more than enough to test the safety of your gun.

By the way, from what I've read many times this Proof test will be conducted twice on a gun, the second time using slightly less powder to make sure the first test didn't do any invisible damage to the barrel. The slightly reduced powder charge was intended to test the gun without fully stressing it repeatedly.

An example of this for your pistol is if you never intend to use over 40 grains of powder under a roundball as a service charge I would test the
gun with an 80 grain powder load once and a 75 grain powder load for the second test.

I would also stress the need for the gunsmith to fully clean the barrel and to test it with a penetrating fluorescent dye following each part of the test.
If no cracks appear in the barrel it should be safe to shoot with a 40 grain charge.

 

[Musketeer]

MVT lists the weight of their heavy Dragoon pistol at 4 pounds, give or take. Heavy Dragoon is right--the originals weigh 2.8 pounds, give or take. There are in fact differences in style and detail between the Indian guns and the real ones, but the weight difference surely stands out.

I don't know why Pete has that figure on his site. My MVTC heavy dragoon weight just a hair under 3 lbs. :thumbsup:

 

[Cmabie]

These look like the same Indian made guns as MVT sells. I have one of their heavy dragoon pistols.
It shoots fine, but being a smooth bore it is not as accurate as a target pistol. They are about 62 caliber. The one thing I like about them is that they appear to be made just about the same as the the originals, all hand made except the shiney high buffed finish. Some of the Italian pistols are pretty, but a liitle too perfect.

 

[Cmabie]

I was talking about the workmanship of original hand made military pistols like my Ketland vs. modern computer made Italian replicas. The craftmansship on my Indian pistol appears on about par with the Ketland pistol I have. If one examins the two pistols one can readily see thay are made by hand from forgings, not investment castings. I have only seen heavy dragoon pistols in museums. I do not have an original heavy dragoon pistol to compare with, but the weight differences my be with the density of the wood used in the stocks and the difference in the metal alloys used. One word of thought here. I have examined many Italian replicas I have in my collection. Even they have slightly different demiensions than the originals. Perhaps this is done so that one cannot pass them on as originlas after aging the finish and removing proof marks, etc.