Mixing Powders

[DanC]

Is there anything wrong with mixing black powder types? For example, say,a homogeneous mixing of Pyrodex and black powder; or 777 and either BP or Pyrodex? Or mixing 2f and 3f in exact known ratios?

Should never even be considered doing this with handloading (smokeless), but the BP "substitutes" are supposed to closely match performance, and most guns will digest 3f as well as 2f as long as you adjust the load. Just was curiouse ...

Dan

(I know, I think too much :youcrazy: )

 

[buford87]

I think this would be a bad idea. Either powder ,of course , would be safe but when mixing powders how do you know that they would stay mixed . For instance mixing FFg and FFFg black powder the finer grained FFFg powder would tend to settle to the bottom of the container and your mixture would become two types of powder in one container loosing any consistancy in loading. Or so it would seem to me....................watch yer top knot..................

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Do not do this!

 

[William O.]

Do not do this!

Ibid; bad idea!

 

[Pigman]

Every once in a while some one will post about how they load with 10 gr of black powder then load the balance with pyrodex or what ever. It seems to work for those people. I do not understand why you do not just use black powder?

Foster From Flint

 

[rafterob]

I know Pyrodex has a warning about mixing with any other powder. have not used any other substitute so I don't know about them. A duplex load as mentioned is not the same as "mixing" the two together. Since the substitutes ignite/burn at a higher temperature I could see the mixture of those with black powder creating the danger of spontaneous combustion of the black powder, and therefore tremendous pressure spikes. Black powder makes such a good propellant because it burns at a controlled rate.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Says not to mix with other powders on the Goex can.

Note that when you burn modern powders they produce their own oxygen through the reaction. When blackpowder gets this boost you may get 1 + 1 = 3.

 

[DanC]

I do not understand why you do not just use black powder?

That is my preference, when I can get it. The absolute closest place I can find that sells it here is in Wallula junction- and yes, that is almost as remote as it sounds. @ 150 mi one way for me.

Every once in a while some one will post about how they load with 10 gr of black powder then load the balance with pyrodex or what ever. It seems to work for those people.

Like I said, I was just wondering, but I didn't even wonder at all about "stacking" it. Seems that even the slightest variation in burn rates would produce wildly innacurate shots; not to mention the possibility of its' being dangerouse. I was wondering more about mixing the stuf evenly (homogeneously).

This is what happens when I have too much time to think ... :shake:

Dan

 

[DanC]

I know Pyrodex has a warning about mixing with any other powder.

Bah! What do they know? :haha:

Since the substitutes ignite/burn at a higher temperature I could see the mixture of those with black powder creating the danger of spontaneous combustion of the black powder, and therefore tremendous pressure spikes. Black powder makes such a good propellant because it burns at a controlled rate.

You mean increasing the burn rate of the BP? I can see that as a possibility ... good call.

Dan

 

[DanC]

Note that when you burn modern powders they produce their own oxygen through the reaction. When blackpowder gets this boost you may get 1 + 1 = 3.

If you mean mixing with modern, smokeless powders- that'd be a no-no even in a modern firearm!

If you mean the BP substitutes, I didn't think they produced oxygen. If they do, that'd certainly change the equation ... :hmm:

Thanx.

Dan

 

[jtmattison]

Do not do this!

X 100!

Be safe.

HD

 

[Jason Lewis]

i don't think it would shoot worth a darn either. i'm sure the velocity spread would be all over the place.

 

[DanC]

i don't think it would shoot worth a darn either. i'm sure the velocity spread would be all over the place.

Yeah, but here lately, I don't think I'd know the difference! :rotf:

Actually, I can see how that'd be right.

Thx.

Dan

 

[DanC]

Do not do this!

X 100!

Be safe.

HD

Well, I guess now I know ... :surrender:


At least I didn't learn this one the hard way!
(My preferred method!)
:rotf:

Thanx. :hatsoff:

Dan

 

[arcticap]

I don't see any problem with mixing approved muzzle loading powders as long as it's done in a safe manner with respect to the known powder maximums and limitations of the gun.
Hodgdon recommends using a booster charge of black powder to ignite Pyrodex when used in flintlocks. Responsible folks have posted about how they have used booster charges to ignite 777, and even to ignite Blackhorn 209 which Blackhorn management also approved of.
I understand that no one wants to be responsible for recommending that anyone else should mix powders, and I'm not recommending that folks do that either.
But in response to the OP, I don't believe that there's any harm done by doing it in a responsible way. Folks have the use of chronographs to test for velocity, deviations and consistency. There's no need to begin experimenting by mixing a maximum load of powders.
And some useful benefits may be waiting to be revealed by mixing powders such as reduced fouling or a more desirable velocity curve that improves the performance of a particular gun.
That doesn't mean to just go ahead and mix 2 lbs. of different powders together either. But someone could start by simply mixing one charge at a time in a uniform way for safe and responsible testing.
Many of todays cartridges were first developed as wildcat cartridges through experimentation before being accepted and put into production and that process continues to this day.
I think that responsibly mixing powders together is probably much safer than when folks go ahead and proof test their own barrels at home.
IMO when approved powders are mixed then 1 + 1 only equals 2.

 

[paulvallandigham]

We surely must be having a " Failure to communicate", here. :shocked2: :youcrazy:

In my way of thinking, putting a small charge of Black Powder down the barrel of a flint lock to serve as a " Starter" or Igniter" charge, followed by a load of some substitute powder is NOT MIXING THE POWDERS! That is "layering" the powders.

Mixing Powders means putting the two powders in some mixing bowl, and stirring them together until they are MIXED- and you can't distinguish one powder from the other easily. :idunno: :surrender: :hmm:

It is similar to mixing the dry ingredients for some kind of baking end-product, before adding those ingredients to the Liquid ingredients what have also been mixed together. I do this frequently when making "Quick Bread" from a box mix. :bow: :v

The Bottom line is that "MIXING" powders- any powders--- is simply dangerous, unless done in CONTROLLED Laboratory Conditions.

I don't even recommend "mixing" different granule sizes of Black Powder, because you have no control over how much of each make it into the barrel each time you load, and testing shows that you simply get a much larger Standard Deviation in Velocity, and in my own experiments, vary different groups sizes, that are never as small as when one granule size or the other is used instead.

 

[DanC]

I don't see any problem with mixing approved muzzle loading powders as long as it's done in a safe manner with respect to the known powder maximums and limitations of the gun.
Hodgdon recommends using a booster charge of black powder to ignite Pyrodex when used in flintlocks. Responsible folks have posted about how they have used booster charges to ignite 777, and even to ignite Blackhorn 209 which Blackhorn management also approved of. ... IMO when approved powders are mixed then 1 + 1 only equals 2.

Thanx. It was the threads where folks complained about poor ignition with subs that got me to thinkin' in the first place. I thought maybe a little BP in the mix might improve ignition and stretch stocks of harder to get BP.

Dan

 

[DanC]

We surely must be having a " Failure to communicate", here. In my way of thinking, putting a small charge of Black Powder down the barrel of a flint lock to serve as a " Starter" or Igniter" charge, followed by a load of some substitute powder is NOT MIXING THE POWDERS! That is "layering" the powders.

Mixing Powders means putting the two powders in some mixing bowl, and stirring them together until they are MIXED- and you can't distinguish one powder from the other easily. ...

The Bottom line is that "MIXING" powders- any powders--- is simply dangerous, unless done in CONTROLLED Laboratory Conditions. ...

You'd get a better mix turning them in a plastic drum or bottle of some kind rather than mixing in a bowl. But point taken on the difficulty of actually getting a consistant mix, regardless the method. And layering, unless you are having seriouse ignition problems, seems to me that it could be problematic as well.

But, you don't know unless you either ask or try it. Askin' first is easiest.

Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

Absolutely. Anyone today must assume that someone else has already tried whatever they want to do, and can tell them if it is going to work or not. Its much safer to consult with more experienced folks, and learn from their mistakes, than pay the cost of making ALL YOUR OWN mistakes!

As the lawyer for my BP club, I attended club shooting matches for 3 years just to watch how the Range officers watched the shooters, and to watch the members to see that they were being safe and following the club range rule, before I bought my first MLer. I got to ask a lot of "STUPID" questions, and got to know most of the active club members doing so. But, I learned a lot from other people's mistakes, long before I had the chance to make my own. :shocked2: :blah: :rotf: :surrender: :hmm: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

 

[Rifleman1776]

I would never mix any of the subsitutes with anything and then try to shoot it. Unknown territories. But bp is bp. I mix the last remains of cans of 2Fg and 3Fg to use as my hunting powder. I do turn my can or horn around to mix before using. I ain't hunting 'Xs' so any tiny loss of accuracy, if any, is not an issue.