Middlesex Village Trading

[bingo1952]

There was a show on the history channel a month or so back about the Moghuls and they showed one of their "factories", it was a family concern with a lot of filing, hacksawing, and drilling and tapping going on. They didn't have blueprints or even patterns to go by. It was all done by "eye" so I think it's amazing they are as good as they are and that'll rule out parts inter-changability. The Chinese can at least read a blueprint.

 

[mr.fudd]

That's kind of how I do my own WECSOGing. It works pretty well for a one off too if you're willing to put the time into it. Not a good idea for production though.

 

[Pigman]

"So you have names and dates to go with the Italian gun that burst with a blank or you just passing on rumor?"

In response I have not witnessed any black powder firearm explode. So all cases must be rumors.

I have no doubt that 1 Indian musket exploded due to user error. The professional investigation showed it was not a manufacturing defect. In the past we have had users post photos of Italian repros that burst if you discount them as frauds you must also discount the photos of the Indian musket.

Yes the Indian guns are made to a lower quality standard than Italians and the Italians make theirs more to a lower quality standard than some domestic craftsmen. Where do you want to draw the line?

Foster From Flint

 

[David Teague]

In response I have not witnessed any black powder firearm explode. So all cases must be rumors

I have... at a shoot in the 1970's.

It was a CVA "long rifle" that split from muzzle to the fouling ring.

The cause was an air gap that had built up as the day progressed. The guy was a new shooter that didn't know that he needed to clean the rifle between matches , nor did he know about the fouling ring that could build up and create that air gap.

He was standing to my left on the line when his rifle blew. Knocked him out. Both of us were lucky not to have gotten some shrapnel when it blew.

Cheers,

DT

 

[Zonie]

I'm only aware of one Italian gun that burst and it was a cartridge single shot gun.
The owner swore he was using real black powder and there was no evidence of a barrel obstruction.

If I were to guess the cause it would be an overload of smokeless but I didn't tell him that.

I have not heard of any Italian muzzleloaders bursting.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I seem to recall that the photos of the Indian gun show that the burst barrel split along a seam of some sort--like you find in some tubing.

 

[Trot]

I don't remember any photos of Pedersolis bursting. I know there was a photo of one that broke the stock from an overload, may have missed the burst one.

 

[tg]

I would not buy one just from what they look like on the web pages, I don'y see much in the way of any time put into the fit and finish from the pics, I would rathewr wait and save and get parts or a gun from a builder or vendor I am familiar with , but that is just my thoughts others may see them as a great affordable option to have a gun from a particular time in hitory for under a grand.I am not really overly excited about much of anything from that part of the world.

 

[mr.fudd]

I think that's actually the best and most honest case that can be made against them. They simply aren't well crafted.

One of the things I found somewhat frustrating while I was reworking my own gun, was that with most of the little errors it wouldn't have taken much more time or money to have done it right in the first place. I'd bet that somebody building these things in quantity could probably make each trigger work right in about 10 minutes. The stocks could be built with the proper contours to begin with and the wood underneath the ugly finish was actually quite attractive. Then there is the forward sling swivel mounted in the wrong place. It should have been about 6" farther forward. That's just a matter of drilling a hole where it should be.

 

[tg]

There are a lot of ways to cut cost and they likely use all of them, I hope that those who have purchased these guns are happy with them and that they stay safe with no quality issues, I would not like to hear of a forum member or anyone else injured by any gun, the higher the quality the less the odds of that happening I suspect, this is not from a position of "holier than thow" but of true concern about possible injuries and or dissapointment when the box is opened.

 

[Dphar]

I'm only aware of one Italian gun that burst and it was a cartridge single shot gun.
The owner swore he was using real black powder and there was no evidence of a barrel obstruction.

If I were to guess the cause it would be an overload of smokeless but I didn't tell him that.

I have not heard of any Italian muzzleloaders bursting.

Note some cartridge content...

The overwhelming majority of burst BPCRs, be they single shot, lever guns or revolvers are burst from and UNDERLOAD of smokeless powder. They will suffer other damage from over loads but its take a LOT of smokeless to blow one of the singleshots.
The best burst Shiloh I ever saw photos of was burst with 50 grains of IMR3031 and a normal cast bullet. This after I had specifically told him in my capacity as Shiloh's gunsmith that 3031 was NOT SAFE. He loaded what he wanted anyway to duplicate BP ballistics in a 50-140 and broke both the barrel and receiver into multiple fragments. The classic sign of "detonation" of a smokeless charge. He was shooting from the bench and had his none shooting hand behind the action and escaped injury aside from a splinter or two from the forend being shattered.
I have seen a modern 45-120 Sharps that was subjected to extreme abuse using IMR 4198. A full case would not even stick cases with a 500 gr jacketed bullet. They finally crushed the barrel .020" just in front of the bullet and the barrel bulged and then split down 4 flats for about 4-6" and the action fell off the barrel when the receiver bulged from the barrel failure. No fragmentation at all. This barrel was 1137 GB quality.
Some handloaders using light loads of smokeless never have a problem. Some shoot a load for 20 years then blow off part of their hand with the "safe" load. I mention this since sometimes it takes a LONG TIME for the circumstances to "stack" just right and cause an "event". Same for MLs.
I have seen big name ML barrels that split for about 12-15" up from the breech plug with a normal charge, first shot, Pa Keeler lost his ability to buy barrels from the same maker when he published a similar split in Muzzle Blasts about the same time. I have seen a rifle barrel by the same maker simply bulge when fired with a heavy charge and a ball 8" down from the muzzle.
A split invariably means the steel was either flawed or the wrong alloy or its made from drawn tubing (another word for indicating flaws in the steel).
Thus when you see a ML burst with a blank and it splits with no significant bulging you have a barrel made from steel that for any one of several reasons is UNSAFE FOR FIREARMS BARRELS. Period.

As I understand it when a barrel splits for a long distance or all the way up the barrel as someone described previously it’s due to BRITTLE material (or a "seam"). A metallurgist told me that the split will actually out run the bullet up the barrel in many cases and the bullet or parts lodge in the crack as a result.
The problem with BP is that the pressure are low (relative to modern HV stuff) and even crappy material will *usually* contain it. Even brass if you are *really* "brave".
As a result failures are few and far between and *invariably* it is blamed on the loader when often ITS THE MATERIAL. But the failure rate is low so its sometimes years between "breaks".
Now I ask you what failure rate would you want in an airliner YOU flew on every day? What failure rate would you accept on a tire you use on your family vehicle would one material related blowout for 10000 miles be OK? Lets see 10000 miles at 720 revs per mile (28" diameter tire) gives 7.2 million +- revolutions. That should be reasonable right?? Fail very 7.2 million revolutions? What if you loose control and get hit by a 18 wheeler when it goes??
Using unsafe materials for gun barrels so people can buy them cheap is SILLY. The makers get away with it because EVERY LOAD IS A HANDLOAD.
A big name maker, for example, got off back in the early years by "proving" with junk science that the powder used was smokeless. A chemist friend of mine, probably the premier expert on BP in the United States did the exact same test with GOEX right from the can and IT showed smokeless too. The plaintiff's lawyers believed the science and never double checked. On paper this is an absolute test and make good chemical sense, but it FAILED when actually run on BP fouling. So people PROBABLY blew up some early guns using black but fast talking lawyers and shill chemists beat it in court.
Funny part is that the blowups ended or at least reports dried up.
Some of us suspected barrel steel change. OR they got a few bad bars in a shipment and some barrels failed as a result. But people here LOVE these things today...
Something similar happened to Sako Tikka modern CF rifles in circa 2004 and they recalled a number of guns due to unexplainable blowups.
Stainless has proven to be less the reliable especially at low temps in HV rifles. It tends to brittle fracture...
Using materials that are not fully tested causes problems. Modern firearms simply do not fail with factory ammo (except for the times they do) and its generally labeled as an handload error, unless if factory like some of the Sakos. So often it is not, its improper material choice or some undetected flaw.
When you use improper alloys and/or steels made in a manner that makes it unsafe to use for firearms barrel then you start to see low pressure failures for no apparent reason. Like blank charges causing splits with minimal bore obstruction if any.
If you want to test this get a SB musket contour barrel from a known maker made from *hot rolled* 1137 or 4140 GB quality steel and shoot blanks in it till it has an "obstruction" and SPLITS. But you better buy a LOT of powder, cause you will be at it for a long, long time in my opinion.
The bore obstruction explanation by HP White is total BS in my professional opinion. This is based on about 40 years of reading. Gun barrels made from proper materials do not split in this manner.

I have no problem firing or sharing a firing line with the better Italian reproduction MLs or cartridge firearms. If I knew someone was shooting on of the Indian things, I would vacate the area.
I have done such things before.
Dan

 

[djack]

You suck

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

You suck

It's always nice to have another thoughtful and gentlemanly muzzleloading enthusiast join the forum. One who shares our love of history and the old guns and times long past. Sadly, we got you instead...

 

[bingo1952]

I'll bet Claude or the moderators don't let that one stay there very long. We can disagree without being disagreeable. Most of us are well past our teenage years. :shake:

 

[Mossyrock]

You suck

Really? And upon what do you base this obviously well thought-out and learned opinion? Perhaps you have some information upon which to base this statement/attack? If not, perhaps you would do us the kindness of shutting your pie hole....

 

[Claude Mathis]

You suck

Wow, your first post in about 7 months and this is all you can say?

Please show a little more respect or this may be your second to last post.

 

[Zonie]

I'll bet Claude or the moderators don't let that one stay there very long. We can disagree without being disagreeable. Most of us are well past our teenage years. :shake:

My first thought was to blow it away but if I did that, I'd have to remove the other posts that quoted the rude and uncalled for remark.

Perhaps the poster thought he was still on one of the many forums where this sort of comment is common?
I hope it doesn't typify his common responses to others opinions when he disagrees with them, but, time will tell.

 

[tg]

" we got you instead..."

Which one were you talking to Russ? :rotf:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The rude little fellow of few words.

 

[Muskeg Stomper]

Funny thing with some folks. I read Dan's post and simply thought "I don't agree with him". 'Course I've also read lot's of Dan's other posts and thought to myself "Boy, this guy is someone I can learn things from".

Opinions and honest discussions are one of the things that makes this forum great but two word opinions don't add much to my knowledge base. :haha: