Lyman GPR question

[adirondack46r]

The GPR hammer has two positions: the first position is presumably the safety position which allows the hammer to be cocked a part of the way but the hammer does not drop when you pull the trigger. Then there is the fully cocked position that allows you to fire.

The problem I ran into while hunting this year was that when the hammer is in the safety position there is not enough room to slide the capper under it to load a cap, so I was constantly lifting the hammer while trying to load the cap. It seemed that much of the time I had to get tot he fully cocked position in order to get the cap loaded, and then I would have to carefull drop the hammer all the way back down on the cap in order to reset it to the safe position. This whole process seemed awkward and felt accident prone.

Is this your experience? Can I adjust the safety position?

 

[BrownBear]

Yup, it's completely normal and my only real complaint about the Lyman lock. I usually just raise the hammer enough to slip in the capper, rather than taking it all the way to full cock.

What your call "safety" position is called "half-cock," and it's not a true safety. I use it when carrying the gun with a cap, but I uncap the moment I get into tough terrain or approach other people. In our crowd, if we're walking together only the guy in front gets to cap his gun.

I don't know of any way to adjust it to give a little more room under the hammer, BTW.

 

[Skylinewatcher]

I agree with brownbear, he does it just right. I always assumed it acted that way because they just adjusted the locks design some from the flint lock for cap use. I don't really know, but yours works like mine. You follow brownbears logic and your iron wont be pushing while you ain't pulling. :grin:

 

[adirondack46r]

Thanks guys. Good advice.

 

[gearheart]

I believe the manufacturers logic is that the protective cup on the hammer will shield the cap and prevent it from being knocked off while walking through the woods. :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

Good point, and it certainly does the job better than my TCs. Though rare, I've had brush swipe caps off TC nipples.

 

[CrackStock]

I think that this was a hold over from the flintlock days. I think that you would do just as well lowering the hammer to the cap. One way you trust a half cock notch and the other you hope to not have something snag the hammer back and then let it go.

No free ride either way -- you have to mind your gun.

 

[kelleyjk]

I think that this was a hold over from the flintlock days. I think that you would do just as well lowering the hammer to the cap. One way you trust a half cock notch and the other you hope to not have something snag the hammer back and then let it go.

No free ride either way -- you have to mind your gun.

dear God man

are you suggesting carrying the hammer down on a cap?

you wont need to snag it on something to have an a.d. just let it fall hammer down or bump something hard enough and thats all she wrote

 

[Bill Hall]

On all my percussion rifles, I cock the hammer back to full-cock when putting on the cap, whether there's room at half-cock or not. I like to (carefully) set the hammer on the cap to make sure it's seated all the way, since after a few dozen shots, the nipple can get crudded up and hold the cap up a little. Then I pull back to half-cock. It's a habit for me.

I figure capping at full-cock isn't any less safe than doing it at half-cock, since we need to practice ALL our safety rules at ALL times, and assume that gun can go off at any time. Make sense? Bill

 

[HatchetJaque]

Same thread came up a few weeks ago. On that one somebody suggested something that sounded pretty good to me for safe(r) carry with a loaded and capped rifle (in addition to all the other safety protocols, of course!). The suggestion was to take a brass shell casing that was a reasonably close fit over the O.D. of the nipple, cut it to length so that there was still a millimeter or two of clearance between the nipple and the closed end of the shell casing when it was in place over the capped nipple and then to lower the hammer down on top of the shell case to hold it in place. Shell case could be fixed to the trigger guard with a piece of twine or fine wire so it wouldn't get lost when you were ready to fire. I liked this idea because you didn't have to rely on the half-cock position of the lock to hold the hammer off the cap and is seems like it would take a fair amount of force to crush that shell case down to where it could set off the cap. I picked up a couple of pieces of brass the last time I was at the range and am gonna give it a try on my GPR...

 

[DanChamberlain]

A bit of brass or copper tubing would work as well and be more aesthetic.

Dan

 

[CrackStock]

dear God man

are you suggesting carrying the hammer down on a cap?

you wont need to snag it on something to have an a.d. just let it fall hammer down or bump something hard enough and thats all she wrote

My good man,

Let's turn this around for a moment.

How safe is your use of a half cock notch as your safety device under your same scenarios?

Please do an experiment.
Lower the hammer of an unloaded caplock onto a cap.
(Check it twice and observe the muzzle discipline that we all learn since we first touched a gun)

Press the hammer down tightly so that the cap is prssed to make sure that it is well seated onto the nipple.
(I generally do this press fit when hunting to make sure that the first shot is effective when it is needed. If you cannot lower the hammer safely, you should not be handling a gun of any type)

Now try to make it fire.

Pull the trigger. Hopefully nothing happens here since the hammer is down and has nowhere to go.

Press down on the hammer all you like. Am I confused in thinking that force will not set off a cap? Impact will set off a percussion, but not simple pressing force.

Bump the rifle to your heart's content.

Now for the scary ones.

Tap the hammer (Only while pointed in a safe direction and of course, unloaded, but capped.)

Tap harder.

Now the worst - pull the hammer back and see how far it must travel to get the cap to fire.

Somewhere along the line, it will fire the cap -- it is supposed to fire the cap. But the idea is to learn what it actually takes to make this happen.

In my less than scientific attempts, it was pretty hard to make the cap fire without pulling the hammer back at least some distance.

Why would I go to these lengths?

Mostly because I am curious and want to learn.

But also because, I have witnessed the NPS and other organizations' test of half cock notches prior to permitting MLs to be used to participate in various events. They dangle the weight of the gun on the trigger while the hammer or cock is set at half cock. This over stresses that fairly weak area. This to my thinking is a primary cause of failure of half cock notches. I have also seen guns fail that test with a fair degree of frequency.

With this experience in mind, I sought some alternative method of safe carry. In discussions with fellow shooters and hunters, I learned that some find that hammer down may actually be safer for a percussion system.

As to the other comment posted above regarding using an old fired cartridge casing placed over the nipple as a cover to serve as a safety device, I added the comment about spent .22 casings fitting the top conical portion of some #11 nipples. Others mentioned other pistol caliber cartridges. This idea is safe, convenient and cheap. Just learn what fits your nipple. I have used this method on my Tennessee and it worked fine -- it is my first choice.

I do prefer this carry condition over the half cock notch or hammer down carry methods.

YMHS,
CrackStock

 

[Pete Gaimari]

dear God man

are you suggesting carrying the hammer down on a cap?

you wont need to snag it on something to have an a.d. just let it fall hammer down or bump something hard enough and thats all she wrote

My good man,

Let's turn this around for a moment.

How safe is your use of a half cock notch as your safety device under your same scenarios?

Please do an experiment.
Lower the hammer of an unloaded caplock onto a cap.
(Check it twice and observe the muzzle discipline that we all learn since we first touched a gun)

Press the hammer down tightly so that the cap is prssed to make sure that it is well seated onto the nipple.
(I generally do this press fit when hunting to make sure that the first shot is effective when it is needed. If you cannot lower the hammer safely, you should not be handling a gun of any type)

Now try to make it fire.

Pull the trigger. Hopefully nothing happens here since the hammer is down and has nowhere to go.

Press down on the hammer all you like. Am I confused in thinking that force will not set off a cap? Impact will set off a percussion, but not simple pressing force.

Bump the rifle to your heart's content.

Now for the scary ones.

Tap the hammer (Only while pointed in a safe direction and of course, unloaded, but capped.)

Tap harder.

Now the worst - pull the hammer back and see how far it must travel to get the cap to fire.

Somewhere along the line, it will fire the cap -- it is supposed to fire the cap. But the idea is to learn what it actually takes to make this happen.

In my less than scientific attempts, it was pretty hard to make the cap fire without pulling the hammer back at least some distance.

Why would I go to these lengths?

Mostly because I am curious and want to learn.

But also because, I have witnessed the NPS and other organizations' test of half cock notches prior to permitting MLs to be used to participate in various events. They dangle the weight of the gun on the trigger while the hammer or cock is set at half cock. This over stresses that fairly weak area. This to my thinking is a primary cause of failure of half cock notches. I have also seen guns fail that test with a fair degree of frequency.

With this experience in mind, I sought some alternative method of safe carry. In discussions with fellow shooters and hunters, I learned that some find that hammer down may actually be safer for a percussion system.

As to the other comment posted above regarding using an old fired cartridge casing placed over the nipple as a cover to serve as a safety device, I added the comment about spent .22 casings fitting the top conical portion of some #11 nipples. Others mentioned other pistol caliber cartridges. This idea is safe, convenient and cheap. Just learn what fits your nipple. I have used this method on my Tennessee and it worked fine -- it is my first choice.

I do prefer this carry condition over the half cock notch or hammer down carry methods.

YMHS,
CrackStock

What if you bumped something hard enough on the hammer to cock it back. There's nothing to prevent it from falling forward to fire the gun.

 

[CrackStock]

What if you bumped something hard enough on the hammer to cock it back. There's nothing to prevent it from falling forward to fire the gun.
Pete

In the hammer down mode, if the hammer is somehow pulled back significantly, the hammer can still engage the half cock notch that most people rely upon anyway.

If it only comes back a small amount - not enough for either notch to catch, then you would likely have a problem when it is suddenly released.

This info was the purpose of the test suggested above.

If you take care in your carrying and handling of your arm, then this can be a lessened
concern. I try to protect this area with my hand in the woods. It is critical to know the condition of this area at any given moment and to have control over it.

I am not asking you to blindly trust hammer down or even to ever trust it at all. I am asking that you look at it and while doing so, think a bit about how much faith you have in the half cock setting.

The next time that you intend to fire a cap or 2 in order to clear the nipple and chamber, try this hammer drop test. How much impact does it take your hammer to set a cap off. How far must your hammer come back to obtain ignition? It is a valuable bit of information to any BP shooter. Use that wasted cap to learn something about the process.

As the person mentioning it, I again say that I prefer the use of fired brass as a cover for the cap and nipple while walking in the woods.

However, I do think that hammer down does not offer the degree of concern that some believe. I understand that during the caplock era a number of rifles dispensed with a halfcock notch altogether. I used to go to Cohen and son's in New Oleans to see what antique MLs they had in stock. I saw a number of half stock caplocks without a half cock notch. I wondered why. I have seen plans for sidelocks and underhammers without halfcock notches. There are only 2 options there...

The discussion for me is more academic. I want to hear enlightened discussion regarding the process.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

To be honest. I don't trust any position. I have no doubt that what you're saying about the hammer down is true. Just as an experiment. I'll try it with just a cap with no load.

I can't remember ever having to take a fast shot when hunting. I spot and stalk. So, it's always a slow process getting to the game. With that in mind. I walk with no cap loaded and the hammer down. As I get closer to the animal i'm stalking I load a cap and put it at half cock. At this point i'm moving very slow and have complete control of the gun. Usually in both hands, but not always.

I hunt alone, so I only have to be careful of not shooting myself. So far. So good. :grin:

 

[CrackStock]

We are more similar than we are different.
:thumbsup:

 

[kelleyjk]

Hey, feel free to carry your loaded weapon with the hammer resting on a live cap all you want :youcrazy:

Maybe thats a common practice with some folks on this forum but it seems pretty hazardous to me but its your call I guess :idunno:

 

[ebiggs1]

I do the same as Mr. Capper even when I use my flintlock. I don't prime it until I see deer. Even in a stand you have more time than you may think. I don't cap my cap locks either until almost needed.
Your method may work, I don't know, but on the surface it sounds alarming and scary.

 

[paulvallandigham]

As long as you place the side of your hand, or a finger or thumb behind the hammer, it can't move back when you bump the hammer on a branch or obstruction in your path.

I have larger enough hands, that I can carry the gun with my hand covering the hammer, with the spur behind the back of my hand. Nothing can get between my hand and the hammer to make it move, or smack it hard enough to make the cap fire. Some makes of guns, like the T/C, have the Half Cock Notch positioned low enough that the skirt on the face of the hammer shrouds the cap, and keeps it from coming off the nipple. Other makes of locks have the half-cock notch further back, and its these that you need to consider using some kind of block- like a cartridge caseing. Don't hesitate to put a small rubber O-ring around the base of the nipple, and use a slightly larger casing ( caliber) that fits snugly over that O-ring. That provides a good seal against water on rainy days. You can rest the hammer on that casing to hold it in place over the capped nipple, and its a "TRUE SAFETY". Attach the casing to your trigger guard with a strong cord or leather strap, and its easy to remove. Some guys are so concerned with making noise that they will cover such a casing with a thin strip of leather- often using chamois cloth bought in the auto parts department for polishing wax on cars. The leather prevents the brass casing from being a bell if it strikes any metal on the gun when its swinging loose on the tether.

I do use the Half Cock Notch, and my club does test guns for condition by holding the gun up by its trigger with the hammer in the half-cock notch. I have never found a half cock notch to BREAK UNDER THIS TEST. If one were to break, the tumbler was already defective. No notch should be broken unless through mishandling, and abuse. With a correctly made sear nose, and half cock notch, the nose should fit into the notch, and there should be little or no "wiggle" room within the notch for the nose to move.

Most half cock notches that are damaged or broken appear on guns with set triggers, where the shooter has " dry-fired" his set trigger, with the hammer in the half cock notch. The Spring in the set trigger sends the arm crashing up onto the small extension of the notch, breaking it.

If you are practicing with your flintlock, or percussion rifles, with the gun unprimed, and empty, put some kind of soft material in the jaws of the flintlock, or over the nipple. Then cock the hammer back to full-cock, for each time you pull the set trigger. That is how the lock is designed to work.

Don't put the hammer at half cock during practice or dry-firing. If you are doing this wrong, you are abusing the gun. Your club has an absolute right to prohibit you from using that gun on its range. After all, its responsible for what goes on there, and pays lots of money for never-enough insurance coverage to protect the club from the inevitable law suits.

The fact that the half cock is broken does Not speak well of your safe gun-handling skills, either. Club Range officers use the Half cock notch test as a means to learn who they need to keep their eye on for other safety violations. And, other shooters on the range will also be watching your every move- until you change your ways and prove that you handle guns safely, all the time.

If your gun fails the half-cock-rifle-weight test, THANK the range officer for finding this out, so that you can get the lock repaired. Other members at the range will either loan you a spare gun to shoot, or let you shoot theirs for the match, until you get your lock fixed. They will also help you find the parts, or someone to repair it, or both.

"Poop Happens" to the best of us. And sometimes, people show up with a "New" old gun that some prior owner abused, and don't know how or why this test is done. Th new owner simply does not know that there is something wrong with his lock.

We have people here who don't know that you should remove the lock for cleaning, checking the screws, and oiling the moving parts after each shooting session, a part of the gun-cleaning process. Some don't even know how to remove the lock from their gun!

I know this is a shock to the rest of us, who can't hold a new gun for 10 minutes before we begin taking it apart ( okay- maybe an hour! I exaggerate sometimes :blah: ). But, it is what it is. :shocked2: :surrender: :hmm: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[CrackStock]

Hey, feel free to carry your loaded weapon with the hammer resting on a live cap all you want

Well, thank you for your permission.

We should all recognize that there are levels of readiness which require differing degrees of care. Some keep an unloaded gun in a safe. Others carry a cocked and locked (or safe action) sidearm on their hip. There is a continuum and each looks askance at the other.

What I am discussing is the actual degree of threat involved in carrying a caplock in an advanced state of readiness.

The emotional knee jerk is not of particular interest.

As stated several times, I like the fired cartridge over the nipple as a safety device, but there are times when I might prefer a more ready condition.

I also like to study the history involved. I believe that the half cock notch was not used as commonly as some people think.