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Loyalist Arms info
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Va.Manuf.06 said:
Shake your head all you want Va.Manuf.06, I didn't survive 25 years as an Indirect Fire Infantryman (Mortarman) by being stupid!!! I vehemently resent your implications that I am. Believe it or not, you are not the know all, do all, end all when it comes to weapons on this forum. You don't know me and I don't know you and maybe it's best we keep it that. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I'm done here.
Russ T Frizzen
70 Cal.
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But why doesn't Pedersoli or ArmiSport or any of the European manufacturers feel that they need to cover themselves with this sort of disavowal? They ship their firearms to different countries and do so with vents drilled and locks in place. Something would seem to be wrong with this picture. Or do these same import laws not apply to European made guns?
Hi Bill,
Actually, the Discrimination General website uses both descriptions. Under each item's product page you have a section called non-firing state where you tell us we can have a gunsmith drill the vent and "test fire" it. Then you tell us that you're not responsible for anything if we follow this advice to put it into working condition. Here's the quote:
"We sell historically accurate muskets as a non-firing state. This allows us to comply with local, state, national and international firearms regulations. A certified gunsmith may alter this musket to a firing state by drilling the vent hole and test firing it. We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its present non-firing state."
Please note that I bolded and italicized the parts of particular interest. In this part you do refer to it as "non-firing state".
If you scroll down to the bottom of the page on muskets , you will find the following statement in the section entitled Taxes, Duties, Restrictions, etc.:
"When inquiring to your government please note that the item you wish to import is a historic non-firing replica musket."
Again the bold emphasis is mine, but your statements on your web site are what they are. I was correct in quoting your web site as stating they are "non-firing replicas" and as you can see, it is not taken out of context to infer something other than what it says. You are also correct in saying they are referred to as "non-firing state".
So, the question remains, "Why do other Canadian companies ship these India arms as working black powder arms and you ship them as non-firing replicas?" Evidently your competitor(s) have found a different way to deal with your perceived shipping restrictions.
Your "CYA" statement abrogates any responsibility if the black powder arm you are selling is turned into a functioning firearm. You are promoting your product as a functioning firearm throughout your website and then you put that legal statement at the bottom of the page disavowing any responsibility for them if they are used as intended. That comes across as disingenuous. Reminds me of Mission Impossible "should you be caught the secretary will disavow all knowledge".
I almost purchased a musket from you when I first started reenacting. Then I read your "non-firing state", your "non-firing replica" and your CYA statements and I lost all confidence in your product as a functioning firearm. That's probably just as well because I then moved on to flintlock rifles instead of muskets.
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Actually, the Discrimination General website uses both descriptions. Under each item's product page you have a section called non-firing state where you tell us we can have a gunsmith drill the vent and "test fire" it. Then you tell us that you're not responsible for anything if we follow this advice to put it into working condition. Here's the quote:
"We sell historically accurate muskets as a non-firing state. This allows us to comply with local, state, national and international firearms regulations. A certified gunsmith may alter this musket to a firing state by drilling the vent hole and test firing it. We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its present non-firing state."
Please note that I bolded and italicized the parts of particular interest. In this part you do refer to it as "non-firing state".
If you scroll down to the bottom of the page on muskets , you will find the following statement in the section entitled Taxes, Duties, Restrictions, etc.:
"When inquiring to your government please note that the item you wish to import is a historic non-firing replica musket."
Again the bold emphasis is mine, but your statements on your web site are what they are. I was correct in quoting your web site as stating they are "non-firing replicas" and as you can see, it is not taken out of context to infer something other than what it says. You are also correct in saying they are referred to as "non-firing state".
So, the question remains, "Why do other Canadian companies ship these India arms as working black powder arms and you ship them as non-firing replicas?" Evidently your competitor(s) have found a different way to deal with your perceived shipping restrictions.
Your "CYA" statement abrogates any responsibility if the black powder arm you are selling is turned into a functioning firearm. You are promoting your product as a functioning firearm throughout your website and then you put that legal statement at the bottom of the page disavowing any responsibility for them if they are used as intended. That comes across as disingenuous. Reminds me of Mission Impossible "should you be caught the secretary will disavow all knowledge".
I almost purchased a musket from you when I first started reenacting. Then I read your "non-firing state", your "non-firing replica" and your CYA statements and I lost all confidence in your product as a functioning firearm. That's probably just as well because I then moved on to flintlock rifles instead of muskets.
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Mike Brooks
Cannon
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I was wondering this my self. :hmm: Also , In reading "Twisted 1 in 66" post above I was wondering what a "certified" gunsmith is.... I guess I'm not qualified for the job of drilling a vent hole. :haha:Russ T Frizzen said:
paulvallandigham
Passed On
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YOu might consider all the restrictions that one has to comply with to export a firearm to a particular country. For instance, there was a time( and it may still be true- I just haven't checked with my source, lately) when the Canadian Government insisted that every MLer have a serial number, and if it didn't, they held the gun up, and charged you extra money to put a number( their own) on it! I have been told that these " rules " may very from Province to Province, so you have to check the Province you are traveling to, for a hunt for instance, to determine what is required!
Its BECAUSE the dealer doesn't want to have to hire an expensive lawyer to keep him updated on all the various rules, and add those fees to his overhead, costing you more for a gun his competitors are selling cheaper that he is sending out " Non-Firing Replicas."
I used to think Proofing a gun was necessary, until I learned more about steels, and what can happen to them over time. You are far safer shooting a new gun made today than you were 50 years ago, and much safer now than 100 years ago. The vast majority of failures are the result of " operator error" rather than metallurgical failures. :hmm:
I liked your letter, because you did tell this dealer WHY you chose not to buy his product. He needs to know that what he has chosen to do has also affected his customer base. But, in the final analysis, its his business, and if he can find people to buy these guns in sufficient numbers to keep the business going, it is his decision.
We have all had to deal with dealers who refuse to sell products to certain states, for a variety of reasons. Midway USA refused, for several years, to sell ammo to Illinois residents because their computer program did not have the means to record and retain our Illinois FOID card information. MIdway would send the ammo to a FFL dealer, but not to individuals. Now, their computer has been upgraded, and they have begun taking sales orders from Illinois residents. This all began when our State Attorney General sent out form letters threatening to prosecute any company that sold ammo directly to Illinois residents without complying with Illinois law. ( Il. Law requires the dealer to check to see the buyer has a valid Firearms Owner Identification Card, as if the gangbangers are going to buy ammo from any legitimate source that would require such. But that is the rub: Anti-gunners believe that criminals and gun owners are secretly conspirators, because--- wait for it-- both groups have guns!)
Its BECAUSE the dealer doesn't want to have to hire an expensive lawyer to keep him updated on all the various rules, and add those fees to his overhead, costing you more for a gun his competitors are selling cheaper that he is sending out " Non-Firing Replicas."
I used to think Proofing a gun was necessary, until I learned more about steels, and what can happen to them over time. You are far safer shooting a new gun made today than you were 50 years ago, and much safer now than 100 years ago. The vast majority of failures are the result of " operator error" rather than metallurgical failures. :hmm:
I liked your letter, because you did tell this dealer WHY you chose not to buy his product. He needs to know that what he has chosen to do has also affected his customer base. But, in the final analysis, its his business, and if he can find people to buy these guns in sufficient numbers to keep the business going, it is his decision.
We have all had to deal with dealers who refuse to sell products to certain states, for a variety of reasons. Midway USA refused, for several years, to sell ammo to Illinois residents because their computer program did not have the means to record and retain our Illinois FOID card information. MIdway would send the ammo to a FFL dealer, but not to individuals. Now, their computer has been upgraded, and they have begun taking sales orders from Illinois residents. This all began when our State Attorney General sent out form letters threatening to prosecute any company that sold ammo directly to Illinois residents without complying with Illinois law. ( Il. Law requires the dealer to check to see the buyer has a valid Firearms Owner Identification Card, as if the gangbangers are going to buy ammo from any legitimate source that would require such. But that is the rub: Anti-gunners believe that criminals and gun owners are secretly conspirators, because--- wait for it-- both groups have guns!)
Hey, I don't own the company or work for it. I live in Texas! I have bought one gun from them. I just understand why they make that statement. I talked to them on the phone, before I ordered. I'm not telling anyone to run out and buy two or three. You have to make your own decision. Some folks are gonna like the Indian-made guns, some think their manure, no matter what. Different strokes, for different folks as the old saying goes.
". You have to make your own decision. Some folks are gonna like the Indian-made guns, some think their manure'
That pretty much sums it up, it is interesting that there are mostly knowledgable builders in the latter group however.
That pretty much sums it up, it is interesting that there are mostly knowledgable builders in the latter group however.
So you have to be a builder to be knowledgable about firearms? If your not a builder you don't know a safe firearm from a smoking pipebomb? I'm trying to understand what your saying here. tg, I've read many of your posts here and you seem to be very savvy and knowledgable. Surely you don't believe that safe guns are the exclusive domain of custom gun builders. Years and years of firearms experience doesn't hold any water?
Hi Bill,
Sorry I misunderstood your post a bit. I thought you were answering for them as part of their company. I went back and looked at your post and it was a quote you were making, not a personal statement.
I hope my post didn't come across as a personal attack because it certainly wasn't meant to be so. Rather, I was pointing out what they said on their web site, and I really wanted to know why they sell them this way and Loyalist Arms from Canada doesn't. I also wanted to make clear that when I was considering purchasing one of their guns, all of their "non-firing" and "not legally responsible" terminology made me uneasy, so I didn't purchase from them.
I'm glad you enjoy the gun you purchased from them and hope it works well for you for many years to come. I thoroughly enjoy my rifle and am glad that I decided to get a rifle. Like you said, "different strokes for different folks."
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Sorry I misunderstood your post a bit. I thought you were answering for them as part of their company. I went back and looked at your post and it was a quote you were making, not a personal statement.
I hope my post didn't come across as a personal attack because it certainly wasn't meant to be so. Rather, I was pointing out what they said on their web site, and I really wanted to know why they sell them this way and Loyalist Arms from Canada doesn't. I also wanted to make clear that when I was considering purchasing one of their guns, all of their "non-firing" and "not legally responsible" terminology made me uneasy, so I didn't purchase from them.
I'm glad you enjoy the gun you purchased from them and hope it works well for you for many years to come. I thoroughly enjoy my rifle and am glad that I decided to get a rifle. Like you said, "different strokes for different folks."
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Bill S. said:
Hi Bill,
I don't think tg's statement was relating to the safety of the arms. Rather he was pointing out that most of the gun-builders didn't like them. These experienced gun-builders know how much time and effort it takes to research and build an historically correct gun. So, they are acutely aware of the shortfalls of these and many production guns and don't hold a high opinion of them. Truth be known they couldn't even build let alone sell an historically accurate gun for the price these Indian guns are retailing for. Nor should they - nor should they want to.
There's plenty of room in traditional muzzleloading for both types of arms. Reenacting certainly wouldn't be done at the scale it is without both types. By the way, I own a rifle that tg made and I can tell you first hand, he really knows his stuff!
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
I am not trying to detract from anyones knowledge of guns, it just seems that the "for" side and "agin" side on this issue is pretty lopsided from what I have read with a lot more "gun people" on the "agin" side than the "for" side.
I find little interest in them just from the pics amd writeups at the various websites, and safety would be probably down the line a peg or two from my perspective, but it does remind me of what a lot of folks felt about some Japan made guns years ago, I just hope that there is no faulty stuff slipping thru due to loose QC in a third country industry, I think time will tell and these will probably become less desirable as folks strive for a better representitive example of the originals, I don't see the price as that good compared to the price of parts to make a nice PC gun or even an in the white project. I wish well to those who shoot them and suggest newcommers or first time non-TC/Lyman/Traditions buyers to give it a lot of thought as to just what you really want and compare the price/value issue very closely.
I find little interest in them just from the pics amd writeups at the various websites, and safety would be probably down the line a peg or two from my perspective, but it does remind me of what a lot of folks felt about some Japan made guns years ago, I just hope that there is no faulty stuff slipping thru due to loose QC in a third country industry, I think time will tell and these will probably become less desirable as folks strive for a better representitive example of the originals, I don't see the price as that good compared to the price of parts to make a nice PC gun or even an in the white project. I wish well to those who shoot them and suggest newcommers or first time non-TC/Lyman/Traditions buyers to give it a lot of thought as to just what you really want and compare the price/value issue very closely.
tg, I understand what you're saying and, for the most part, I agree. I just took offense to the statement about gun builders being the only knowledgable folks (that wasn't your exact statement, but it was implied). Perhaps I'm reading too much into your statement and am being overly sensitive; probably the case.
Even in your last post, you refer to gun builders as "gun people", which seems to be an elitist attitude to me. I actually understand why gun builders don't like them, though. I wouldn't like them either, probably, if I built as fine a custom guns as the likes of Mike Brooks and yourself. I actually own two custom-built guns built by Andy Knight (Georgia) and Bobby Christian (Ohio). These two guns put the Indian-made guns to shame!
Not to sound too much like I'm bragging, but I condsider myself a "gun person." I have related my experience in this forum before and will do so again here for reference. I spent 25 years as a US Army Infantryman (mortars). During that period I handled, maintained and qualified with the M1 rifle, Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR), M14 rifle, M16A1 & M16A2 rifles, M1919 .30 cal. Browning machinguns, M2 .50 cal machineguns, M60 machineguns, 60mm, 81mm & 4.2" (107mm) mortars.....and the list goes on. I was assigned on three different occasions to special teams for the testing of new Infantry weapons and ammunition out of Fort Hood, Texas and Fort Benning, Georgia. I started shooting when I was 13 years old in 1963 on the family farm in Northeast Texas. I continue to shoot military weapons today in competition. My 58 year old eyes are not as good as they once were, so I'm no longer in the top 3 (and most of the time, not in the top 10) in my Rifle Club.
Now with all of that unabashed bragging and chest pounding done (for which I apoligize :redface: ), I believe I am "gun people" and I've never built a gun before in my life. I actually don't believe we're that far apart in our opinions. Please, please don't take any of this as flaming or a slap in the face. I absolutely don't mean it that way.
Even in your last post, you refer to gun builders as "gun people", which seems to be an elitist attitude to me. I actually understand why gun builders don't like them, though. I wouldn't like them either, probably, if I built as fine a custom guns as the likes of Mike Brooks and yourself. I actually own two custom-built guns built by Andy Knight (Georgia) and Bobby Christian (Ohio). These two guns put the Indian-made guns to shame!
Not to sound too much like I'm bragging, but I condsider myself a "gun person." I have related my experience in this forum before and will do so again here for reference. I spent 25 years as a US Army Infantryman (mortars). During that period I handled, maintained and qualified with the M1 rifle, Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR), M14 rifle, M16A1 & M16A2 rifles, M1919 .30 cal. Browning machinguns, M2 .50 cal machineguns, M60 machineguns, 60mm, 81mm & 4.2" (107mm) mortars.....and the list goes on. I was assigned on three different occasions to special teams for the testing of new Infantry weapons and ammunition out of Fort Hood, Texas and Fort Benning, Georgia. I started shooting when I was 13 years old in 1963 on the family farm in Northeast Texas. I continue to shoot military weapons today in competition. My 58 year old eyes are not as good as they once were, so I'm no longer in the top 3 (and most of the time, not in the top 10) in my Rifle Club.
Now with all of that unabashed bragging and chest pounding done (for which I apoligize :redface: ), I believe I am "gun people" and I've never built a gun before in my life. I actually don't believe we're that far apart in our opinions. Please, please don't take any of this as flaming or a slap in the face. I absolutely don't mean it that way.
No problem here, my use of the term
"gun people" was intended to cover builders, historians and all with a longtime interest in guns,and that most of these people lean away from many import type guns either from a concern over quality or authenticity, not saying there is a right or wrong, good or bad side to be on,(we all are on the right/good side based on our own opinions,) just an observation as to the positions folks take on this issue.
"gun people" was intended to cover builders, historians and all with a longtime interest in guns,and that most of these people lean away from many import type guns either from a concern over quality or authenticity, not saying there is a right or wrong, good or bad side to be on,(we all are on the right/good side based on our own opinions,) just an observation as to the positions folks take on this issue.
cowpoke1955
58 Cal.
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TG,
We are all on the right side, if we are on this forum. I think imports get a lot of folks into the sport, mainly Italian and Spanish. For a young working stiff with a family, living on a budget and a morgage, it's about all they can afford. As you get older and the taste for black powder grows, you can appreciate the quality of a fine custom piece. I have one Pedersoli, two Lymans and a T/C in my rack. But now the kids are gone, I'm retired and the house is paid for (and with the wide's permission :rotf: ), I'm looking for a good, custom built fowler for my next purchase. I listen to a lot of folks here like you and Mike Brooks. Just can't wait to find the right one. Only have to worry about the price of gas, so I can drive to the range :shocked2: .
We are all on the right side, if we are on this forum. I think imports get a lot of folks into the sport, mainly Italian and Spanish. For a young working stiff with a family, living on a budget and a morgage, it's about all they can afford. As you get older and the taste for black powder grows, you can appreciate the quality of a fine custom piece. I have one Pedersoli, two Lymans and a T/C in my rack. But now the kids are gone, I'm retired and the house is paid for (and with the wide's permission :rotf: ), I'm looking for a good, custom built fowler for my next purchase. I listen to a lot of folks here like you and Mike Brooks. Just can't wait to find the right one. Only have to worry about the price of gas, so I can drive to the range :shocked2: .
Well here she is!
Built from a loyalist arms kit.
Shoots fantastic, solid and pretty.
I have stood side by side with the italian ones and shot after shot she out performs em.
I have seen 2 of the completed track of the wolf ones and mine is still better "though that could be because of the builders themselves.
It is the prettiest, and most relyable bess I have sen to date., great brass work, A grand lock..just a pleasure of a musket.
I would like it more if I could MYSELF fit a walnut stock...But theres no reason to for many years unless I break it.
Built from a loyalist arms kit.
Shoots fantastic, solid and pretty.
I have stood side by side with the italian ones and shot after shot she out performs em.
I have seen 2 of the completed track of the wolf ones and mine is still better "though that could be because of the builders themselves.
It is the prettiest, and most relyable bess I have sen to date., great brass work, A grand lock..just a pleasure of a musket.
I would like it more if I could MYSELF fit a walnut stock...But theres no reason to for many years unless I break it.
