Looking for Hawken help

[Herb]

Hi, Uwe. I was in Schmoelz, Bavaria, near Kronach, in 1980 to find my great grandfather's baptisimal entry in the church records. Yes, I took photos of the Bridger Hawken comparing it to the copy I built, and I will post them as a new topic soon. You are correct, there aren't any really good photos of the Bridger Hawken. Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West", volume III, has a really poor full length photo of the rifle. It is a near twin to the Kit Carson rifle, and he has really good photos of that one. I also took a lot of measurements of the Bridger rifle, the kind that I need to copy a rifle. Some are different than the measurements I made or calculated from enlarged photos from the GRRW when they had this rifle 1975-1978, when I saw and handled it there. There is distortion in photos that I was unaware of. Thanks for your interest.

 

[R.I.Jerolmon]

I want to sincerly thank you folks that took the time to offer assistance. The rifle will have the L&R Ashmore lock (Just can't afford the Roller)straight fore trigger and blued finish. With your help I did make contact with Don Stith and Doc White and got great metal finish information.Sure hope mine looks as nice as Herbs. Thanks again.

 

[tenngun]

Just the time frame rules against many flint hawkins. His first shop in xeina was in 1818, any guns made there would have been flint, but it seems he was more of a repair man. By the time he moved to St lou precussion were the up comming thing.The one rifle I know of was an example of how rare they would have been. How many rifles could Jake make a year?I would doubt it was 12. Maybe a few dozen before prcussion took over.
My first build was a flintlock hawkin,but I wouldn't build one today...Hens teeth comes to mind.

 

[Herb]

LaBonte- you wrote "BTW the flat to the wrist style often noted as being early does not show up on originals until after 1840...."
I am sure you want to be correct in your statements. Here is Mariano Medina's rifle in Jim Gordon's museum.

And here is a Hawken in the Museum of the Fur Trade. I don't know how old this one is, but it is a J&S.Hawken.

 

[LaBonte]

re:

1) the Bridger Rifle and browning - With all due respect to Doc White, but the "problem" is that what it looks like today wasn't necessarily what it looked originally - rust blued barrels start out blue black but over time the finish returns to the red/brown stage due to oxidation. That's why one must do a detail stripping of rifles i.e. removing sights, etc as noted above by Don Stith

2)Medina/Modena Rifle - Sorry but despite the claims of some the Medina rifle is not a pre-1840 rifle. I've examined that rifle is close detail and along with the barrel being a replacement (and yes Mr. Gordon will argue that point, but the proof is there - the VERY thin fore end, etc. In fact there is a very good possibility that the rifle was originally built by Hoffman and Campbell, the subsidiary of the Hawken shop. Compare lock surround shape, butt stock shape, etc to other H & C's. not my opinion alone it agrees with Don STith, and Jerry Gnemi who has probably one of the largest collection of Hawken rifles.
My research into the subject has led me to believe (along with other students of the subject) that Medina got this rifle in 1842 when he traveled east to St. Louis with Carson. The style of the rifle, the timing of the trip, Medina's history prior to that, etc all fit this period better than that 1833 date that was put on there by a later owner.

 

[Herb]

As Will said, "All I know is what I read in the papers".