Long Range Match Shooting

[Coot]

[quote

I've had Ned Roberts book on my list for a couple of years.[/quote]
Bookfinder.com has a bunch of Ned Roberts books for sale - I saw a used copy for only $11 & change.

 

[meanmike8665]

Responding to op. Whose side locks? Round ball vrs slugs?
Is his gun more accurate than mine? Maybe. Is he a better shot? I dunno know, but what I do know, lots of people shooting inlines and modern guns have asked how I could shoot such good group with that "old gun". I have target guns that shoot better than most AR type guns. I would not pay any attention to this argument because we are not comparing apples to apples and once people say read so and so book, well it is down hill from there because Cline's and Robert's talk a lot about target rifles. Not typical side locks like TC and GP or CVA.
Just saying,
Michael

 

[FishDFly]

"Cline's and Robert's talk a lot about target rifles. Not typical side locks like TC and GP or CVA.
Just saying"

Re-read Ned Roberts cover to cover, not only target shooting, he had an excellent mentor, which folks do not have today. Did Allen mentor you??

More is to be learned from those folks than 30 year old internet typists.

More is to be learned from 60+ year olds.

 

[meanmike8665]

Sorry Richard, the other way around. I mentored him in bench shooting.
Michael

 

[rowdyjoe]

Did you read this part ....."saw a Union soldier moving" .....
It wasn't written as if it were a "target rich" environment.
This event is also reported in other articles and they all read as if a single union soldier was targeted. I tend to believe multiple authors who agree on one event. Was the shooter lucky? Probably but, he made a remarkable shot with period equipment and it was good enough to kill the victim. That's a heck of feat for period equipment and the shooter.

 

[Heelerau]

"Hang around Old Blokes, 'cause they know stuff"
Side locks shoot really well, as far as I have ever known, I don't think there is any point in arguing with ignorance, just let them set, and we can enjoy our side locks in the knowledge that these old guns have nothing to prove, they have seen the elephant and heard the owl.

Cheers

Heelerau

 

[rodwha]

Ultimately I was speaking of slug guns as it's closer to an equal comparison, but I have read of people some RB rifles are quite accurate out at 200 yds and was also curious about those as well.

At the same time he claims a more typical rifle meant for hunting can't do any better than 4" at 100 yds.

 

[meanmike8665]

Yeah, well I agree. Typical hunting rifle 4 in group is pretty good. Please, understand target rifles shooting teflon patching, heavy charges, over size balls, false muzzles, and good peeps are going to shoot less than 4 in groups most of the time, but typical hunting rifle shooting 0.10 patches and light powder charges and open sight 4 in groups are great.
Michael

 

[kansas_volunteer]

I recall a Civil War incident where a Union officer using a ML target rifle mounted on a machine rest killed a Southern general at a very long distance. The rifle itself would have to have been capable of fine accuracy to make that work.

Decades ago I told shooting buddies a rifle like the Remmington 700, which can be tuned to shoot exceptionally tight groups, could be modified into a muzzle loader, and tuned to shoot groups tighter than nearly all the side lock rifles we were then familiar with. They said it could never be done. Well, it was.

The finest muzzle loading rifle shooter I ever saw could shoot maybe three-inch groups at 100 yards off hand with the custom side lock rifles he built for himself, including flinters. Pretty darned good when shooting unsupported in Western Kansas wind.

Anyone who says they can shoot tighter than that, offhand on a windy day every time, has to have Guiness Book of World Records class muscle and breath control, as well as a very accurate shooting rifle to start with. We always said at the matches he attended he might as well be given the winners trophy when he arrived as there really no need for him to shoot. The outcome was pretty certain.

For a novelty match I once made targets of a life sized brown mouse on brown paper. Darned if he didn't hit the mouse center at 50 yards with his first shot. He probably would have shot nearly a one-inch group if he had continued.

 

[fleener]

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity"

A muzzle loader is a muzzle loader. Inline or ignition from the side, they are still both a ML.

An accurate rifle to shoot at long distance needs a great barrel and a load that the rifle likes.

A ML with a scope on it will shoot better at most any range, it is not a function of the rifle necessary, but of the person to have a better sight picture and make a more precision shot.

If you took a rifle that is a known shooter at 500 yards and put a scope on it, I would fully expect it to shoot a smaller group than it would without a scope. Peep sights are good, but there is no magnification.

I have a .45 cal ML rifle a green mountain barrel, shooting 86 grains of 2f swiss, 420 grain grease groove bullet with a 14x scope on it that will shoot a 1/2" group at 200 yards. Take the scope off and use peep sights, the group will be as a percentage very much larger.

Human eye sight is the limiting factor, not the rifle.

You have to compare apples to apples.

Fleener

 

[52Bore]

There are only 3 ML matches to 1000 yards using traditional Match rifles (USA) - yes, open sights.
In order of longevity (20+ years running)
Oak Ridge, TN
MLAIC - Butner, NC
NMLRA - Atterbury, IN
Short range it's not uncommon for top scores to be 100, mid-range in the mid 90's and 1000 in the 80's on standard NRA targets.

I do not know of any such LR match for modern ML.

 

[52Bore]

I should add that the NMLRA has shot ML bench guns to 500yds (max range at Friendship) for nearly 85 years.
Traditional LR Match Rifles (Long Range Silhouettes, same targets as BPCR) started in 1991.

 

[meanmike8665]

I wish people understood there is a difference between shooting slugs and round balls. A side lock rifle shooting a fast twist, bullet/ slug will out shoot a side lock round ball rifle. I applaud long range shooters. A Gibbs rifle is a thing of beauty, it will always out shoot a round ball rifle.
An inline will not always out shoot a match grade target rifle,in most cases it will not be close. I would bet on someone shooting a Gibbs over an inline every time, the Gibbs shooter probably has more experience with his rifle than the inline/ hunter once a year shooter!
Michael

 

[fleener]

MM

I am not talking about RB rifles, my comments are for rifles shooting conicals, or LRML (long range muzzle loader)

I am assuming that the OP is talking about the latest craze of inlines that are setup for shooting out to 500 yards. These rifles in the hands of a good shooter are very capable of shooting a group that I would kill for in one of my traditional English Sporting rifles. The traditional LRML rifle will quite simply not be able to shoot as good of a group. A 14x scope makes a huge difference.

I have 5 traditional LRML and one that is not traditional with the 14X leupold tactical scope. The scoped rifle will shoot a 1/2" group at 200 yards. The traditional rifles will shoot a 1 3/4" group at 200 yards.

I shoot with the best LRML shooters in the United States. Several of us have tricked out inlines shooting the same bullets, same powder that we shoot in our traditional rifles. I can tell you without a doubt I and my buddies can shoot much better groups with the inlines than we can shoot with a traditional rifle. The difference is the scope.


Fleener

 

[meanmike8665]

Sorry, I follow your posts and knew you were involved with long range shooting. I also know you are respected in that game.
I guess I read so many of these posts where guys say " I have ml and it will shoot 3 or 5 shot groups at 100yd at are 1/2 in and I know they don't know what a 100 yds is!
I know long range bullet guns shoot better and round ball guns.
Thanks for an honest post.

Michael

 

[rodwha]

I'm not that knowledgeable concerning various types of inlines. I'm not sure what type it is but the brand (Savage ML 2) made me think average hunting type.

I just know I'm not interested in them.

 

[Mad Professor]

Where is D Minshall on this?

His shooting and rifles will put the asshat$ to shame.

 

[Mad Professor]

Try creedmore, withworth, gibbs as a search

 

[paulab]

Hey 52 Bore!
Don't forget Grayling Michigan!
The Mich. Rifle and Pistol Assn. Puts on NRA sanctioned long range Black Powder Target Rifle [800-900-1000] yd. matches that have a M/L class.
Our mid-range matches [200-300-500-600 yds.] are held at Cadillac Mi. Traditional LRML only!

 

[nhmoose]

Yeah, well I agree. Typical hunting rifle 4 in group is pretty good. Please, understand target rifles shooting teflon patching, heavy charges, over size balls, false muzzles, and good peeps are going to shoot less than 4 in groups most of the time, but typical hunting rifle shooting 0.10 patches and light powder charges and open sight 4 in groups are great.
Michael

Agree :hatsoff: