Knife pins or rivets?

[LRB]

I use a 6"x48" sander that has a machined flat cast iron deck for grips and tangs. Works fine. The cheapo types with sheet metal decks do not usually work well for true flat sanding.

 

[lonehunter]

When I glue like that I get gaps, the slabs do not lie flat on the tang. That's me.

To get a good glue line, it is better to glue one slab onto the tang at a time under a little pressure from a soft jawed clamp

Please explain why this is better.
I want my glue/epoxy to flow from one grip to the other through holes in the tang and bond together with one solid chemical bond.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Got it.

 

[crockett]

I do it the other way around, a flat 8" x 12" piece of sandpaper on a flat surface. I put some tape on top of the scale- in the middle- to serve as a "handle", fold the tape back on itself in the middle- that's the "handle" and then stick the ends of the tape down on the scale. The tape is sort of an upside down T. Put the scale on the paper and sand in one direction, pick up scale, put it back and repeat.
BUT, you can still "round" the surface if you force it. At least I do.

 

[Artificer]

When I glue like that I get gaps, the slabs do not lie flat on the tang. That's me.

To get a good glue line, it is better to glue one slab onto the tang at a time under a little pressure from a soft jawed clamp

Please explain why this is better.
I want my glue/epoxy to flow from one grip to the other through holes in the tang and bond together with one solid chemical bond.

To glue my slabs in place, I use Devcon Epoxy 2 Ton Crystal Clear number 6931345 in the Syringe applicator. When used properly, the high bond strength of 2,500 psi is so strong the wood slabs will tear apart before the glue bond is broken and that makes the pins “just for show” for HC/PC looks. (Since we modern people are more susceptible to infection from rotting blood or food under the slabs than our ancestors, I don’t want me or other people getting sick from using a knife I complete.) I also prefer the 30 minute set up time as you don’t have to rush and can take your time getting the slabs placed properly and under pressure. When the slabs are fitted nicely to the tang before gluing, it looks like there is just wood finish between the tang and slabs. (If one has to fill an open space like they did with the HC/PC “cutlers glue” made from pine pitch and brick dust on some 18th century Trade Knives, then I just add brick dust to the epoxy glue for that area only. IOW, I don’t add brick dust to the epoxy I use to glue the slabs to the tang.)

Back in the late 70’s/early 80’s, I made my first set of kitchen knives with carbon steel blades and full tangs with this epoxy. They are still going strong with no glue joint failure. Now, I have never and will NOT put them in them in a dishwasher as that may/will cause damage to the wood slabs over time. I just hand wash them when I finish using them and apply a little vegetable oil on the blades to keep them from rusting and then wipe that dry with a paper towel. Basically the same thing my WWI era Grandparents did before stainless steel knives came along.

When I made that first set of full tang kitchen knives, I found it was far more difficult to drill the holes for the pins in the slabs and then try to glue the slabs and pins in place under correct pressure. So I learned to glue one slab on at a time because it is easier to align it on the tang and get the correct pressure on it for the epoxy glue to bond correctly on each side.

I cut the slabs so they will be a little oversize (maybe 1/8” at most) for the top, bottom and end of the tang. The only portion of the slabs I care about matching in shape are the fronts of the slabs that are closest to the blade. That way you won’t have to shape them after the slabs are glued on and pinned.

After the first slab is glued in place and the glue allowed to cure properly, then lay the tang and that slab down on a piece of scrap wood with the slab against the scrap wood. Then drill your holes through the tang and through the slab. The scrap wood is support so when the drill bit goes through the outside of the slab, it won’t chip out the outer section of the hole in the slab. Use a sharp chisel or knife to get any glue off the side of the tang that does not have a slab glued to it yet.

Align the second slab so the front lays close to same point as the other slab on the tang. It won’t be perfect, but it will be as good or better than most original knives. Then glue on the other slab onto the tang using a little pressure of the clamp. Allow that new glue to cure fully. Then place the undrilled slab down on the scrap wood for support. Drill through the slab you already have holes in as a guide and drill through that slab, the tang and the undrilled side. This way you don’t have to worry about the holes for the pins aligning.

Then you have to decide if you are just going to glue the pins in place or peen the ends to make them appear a little more HC/PC correct. However, many people today don’t like the look of peened ends because they usually aren’t perfectly round and look less esthetically pleasing to our modern eyes.

Does that answer your question?
Gus

 

[Artificer]

Since I have never used pine pitch to fully replicate the authentic "cutler's glue," I wondered if you would please tell us how long it takes to fully cure?

Gus

 

[lonehunter]

When I glue like that I get gaps, the slabs do not lie flat on the tang. That's me.

To get a good glue line, it is better to glue one slab onto the tang at a time under a little pressure from a soft jawed clamp

Please explain why this is better.
I want my glue/epoxy to flow from one grip to the other through holes in the tang and bond together with one solid chemical bond.

To glue my slabs in place, I use Devcon Epoxy 2 Ton Crystal Clear number 6931345 in the Syringe applicator. When used properly, the high bond strength of 2,500 psi is so strong the wood slabs will tear apart before the glue bond is broken and that makes the pins “just for show” for HC/PC looks. (Since we modern people are more susceptible to infection from rotting blood or food under the slabs than our ancestors, I don’t want me or other people getting sick from using a knife I complete.) I also prefer the 30 minute set up time as you don’t have to rush and can take your time getting the slabs placed properly and under pressure. When the slabs are fitted nicely to the tang before gluing, it looks like there is just wood finish between the tang and slabs. (If one has to fill an open space like they did with the HC/PC “cutlers glue” made from pine pitch and brick dust on some 18th century Trade Knives, then I just add brick dust to the epoxy glue for that area only. IOW, I don’t add brick dust to the epoxy I use to glue the slabs to the tang.)

Back in the late 70’s/early 80’s, I made my first set of kitchen knives with carbon steel blades and full tangs with this epoxy. They are still going strong with no glue joint failure. Now, I have never and will NOT put them in them in a dishwasher as that may/will cause damage to the wood slabs over time. I just hand wash them when I finish using them and apply a little vegetable oil on the blades to keep them from rusting and then wipe that dry with a paper towel. Basically the same thing my WWI era Grandparents did before stainless steel knives came along.

When I made that first set of full tang kitchen knives, I found it was far more difficult to drill the holes for the pins in the slabs and then try to glue the slabs and pins in place under correct pressure. So I learned to glue one slab on at a time because it is easier to align it on the tang and get the correct pressure on it for the epoxy glue to bond correctly on each side.

I cut the slabs so they will be a little oversize (maybe 1/8” at most) for the top, bottom and end of the tang. The only portion of the slabs I care about matching in shape are the fronts of the slabs that are closest to the blade. That way you won’t have to shape them after the slabs are glued on and pinned.

After the first slab is glued in place and the glue allowed to cure properly, then lay the tang and that slab down on a piece of scrap wood with the slab against the scrap wood. Then drill your holes through the tang and through the slab. The scrap wood is support so when the drill bit goes through the outside of the slab, it won’t chip out the outer section of the hole in the slab. Use a sharp chisel or knife to get any glue off the side of the tang that does not have a slab glued to it yet.

Align the second slab so the front lays close to same point as the other slab on the tang. It won’t be perfect, but it will be as good or better than most original knives. Then glue on the other slab onto the tang using a little pressure of the clamp. Allow that new glue to cure fully. Then place the undrilled slab down on the scrap wood for support. Drill through the slab you already have holes in as a guide and drill through that slab, the tang and the undrilled side. This way you don’t have to worry about the holes for the pins aligning.

Then you have to decide if you are just going to glue the pins in place or peen the ends to make them appear a little more HC/PC correct. However, many people today don’t like the look of peened ends because they usually aren’t perfectly round and look less esthetically pleasing to our modern eyes.

Does that answer your question?
Gus

Not really!
You said it was "better" to glue one slab on at a time.
You explained your method (to each his own) but not why it's better. I am very aware of Devcon epoxy, and have seen a few knives it was used on. It's good stuff no doubt.
If it works for you, great!
As you noted the front is the most important part when attaching the slabs to the tang.
Try this!
Tack one side on with superglue, drill pin holes, tack on other slab keeping the front of the slabs as even as you can, drill pin holes in 2nd slab chasing it through the holes drilled in the first slab. A sharp strike to the workbench will release the slabs from the tang, clean up superglue residue with sand paper, put slabs together and slide pins in the holes you drilled to allow you to completely finish the front of the slabs. Now Devcon both slabs to the tang. The front of the slabs have no choice but to line up perfectly and you get a one pour, solid epoxy bond between slabs, tang, and even the pins.

 

[crockett]

Sort of like linseed oil, I'd say maybe a month or so to fully harden but you shouldn't have to wait that long. If it is a trade knife and the rosin is between scales I'd use the knife almost immediately. If you are making a Bowie and are relying on the rosin to support a rat tail tang, etc. then I'd probably wait three or four weeks and work on something else during the wait.

 

[crockett]

On the "glue line". I go to a number of knife shows with custom builders. Sometimes they use a liner for appearance and it looks like maybe a glue line. As I said I use a Dremel to slightly hollow out the inside center of the scale so it is that part that is glued to the tang. I also use the Dremel to roughen the middle of the tang a little to hold the glue. The perimeter of the scale fits close enough to the tang that no glue is visible.

 

[LaBonte]

Since I have never used pine pitch to fully replicate the authentic "cutler's glue," I wondered if you would please tell us how long it takes to fully cure?

Gus

Sorry but Crockett's answer is in correct, cutler's resin is nothing like linseed oil for curing- I use cutler's resin a lot and have for years - when done right it fully cures in hours - the mix I use is generally 5 parts rosin/pitch, 1 part beeswax and 1 part filler i.e. brick dust, charcoal dust, fine sand, etc. The big trick is learning how-to cook the rosin so that it is not too soft, yet not too hard that it becomes brittle. I use my own locally gathered pitch and when I first get it is a mix of softer and harder pitch - I melt all of it together and pour in a tall narrow container and let cool - the manure sinks to the bottom and I just cut that section off and throw away - small yoghurt containers work well for this. I then check the consistency - if I can pinch into it is still too soft so you need to cook it a bit more to remove more moisture. If too hard I add more soft pitch or use a bit more beeswax.
Anyway the final product should cure to a hard but not brittle mix. Sometimes I get it OK hardness wise but, it feels a bit sticky and then I just rub in some grit or remove by heating with a hair dryer and a pick if need be and reheat, etc.
It's always a bit of trial and error each batch - even when I use commercial rosin or pitch it takes a bit of experimenting to get the right mix, but it's great stuff once you learn it.

 

[Artificer]

Not really!
You said it was "better" to glue one slab on at a time.
You explained your method (to each his own) but not why it's better. I am very aware of Devcon epoxy, and have seen a few knives it was used on. It's good stuff no doubt.
If it works for you, great!
As you noted the front is the most important part when attaching the slabs to the tang.
Try this!
Tack one side on with superglue, drill pin holes, tack on other slab keeping the front of the slabs as even as you can, drill pin holes in 2nd slab chasing it through the holes drilled in the first slab. A sharp strike to the workbench will release the slabs from the tang, clean up superglue residue with sand paper, put slabs together and slide pins in the holes you drilled to allow you to completely finish the front of the slabs. Now Devcon both slabs to the tang. The front of the slabs have no choice but to line up perfectly and you get a one pour, solid epoxy bond between slabs, tang, and even the pins.

OK, readily admit I never thought about using super glue. I imagine you are using a VERY small amount to tack the slabs on? For some reason I envisage one or both wood handles cracking if not?

Gus

 

[lonehunter]

As small amount as you can get away with makes cleaning it off the tang easier. Heat can also be used to make the SG let go.

 

[LRB]

Correct Gus. A tiny dab of super glue in two or three spots down the middle of the tang. Stay away from edges. Sometimes when breaking the slab loose, a tiny bit of wood will stay with the glue. No harm if in the middle, but can make a gap if on an edge.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I might have posted these before. Enneyhow, I don't often post pics of knives I have made. But, these are special. At least to me. I made them when I was eight years old. No slabs. Antlers just dug out a hole and cramed the tang in. The tang is held with hot hide glue. It has been more than just a few moons since I was eight and that glue (we are talking glues) is as tough as ever. Those blades could not be removed with an act of Congress.

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[bpd303]

Most of the knives I make are just for my enjoyment. I'm especially fond of rat-tail tangs glued with hot hide glue and riveted at the hilt.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Super. I like the history but I also firmly believe an important part of this game is encouraging folks to do their own thang an make do with wat they have. That is history also.

 

[crockett]

Chuck: I didn't know you were supposed to cook the resin. What I have done is just mix the sap collected from a pine tree with pulverized wood charcoal and to start off it is like a thick gum that can be molded and when left alone it eventually dries or hardens but it takes awhile.
Do you store the components separately and then cook up a batch and immediately use it or do you make a batch that hardens and then when you need it heat and soften it and use it?
Charcoal vs. brick, I figure the color is probably different but is there any structural difference? One stronger than the other?
Thanks.

 

[Artificer]

Chuck,

Thanks a bunch for the info. I really appreciate it.

Gus

 

[crockett]

Chuck- I think I better ask another question or two rather than assume anything. By "resin". What I have done is collect pine sap in the spring from pine trees. This "sap" I am using as is. The stuff was pretty pure so I didn't have to stain out any needles or bark.
So...beginning at the beginning....the right way is collect the sap from a pine tree. Heat this up to let impurities settle to the bottom. Do this in a container and when the sap sets up just cut away the bottom part with the settled out impurities.
Then mix the top portion with the beeswax and pulverized filler (brick/charcoal).
I did some quick "web looking" I think I saw some of your posts elsewhere that I think answered some questions, such as you can reheat the mixture and then use that way.
All help appreciated. Thanks. Having something that sets up fast is a big plus. It sound like the mixture is also an excellent glue as long as it doesn't get reheated past 200 degrees or so. That I didn't know, I thought it was only a filler.

 

[Jaeger]

I've made several knives using Wick Ellerbe's method and suggestions, and I am very happy with both how easy and well it works, and the results.