Kit v. Factory

[azmntman]

ommmm I'm telling

 

[flatcreek]

If you buy a NOS kit you can be pretty sure you getting a new un molested rifle. When you buy used there is no telling what you may get. That being said I'm sure a lot of good used rifles are sold on this site.

 

[Stevan]

Just pleasing me!

 

[sturmkatze]

I have a TC .50 Hawken Flinter. Bought in 1974 new. Was in a house fire in 2014. Urethane is bubbled, barrel browning is peeling. I cant find anyone to restore it.
I will reluctantly part with it as a kit rifle for the low low price of $800.
PM me if interested. Get now before demand increases price. Will throw in a couple of flints.
Guarantee no minie balls stuck in barrel.

Browning doesn’t peel.

 

[Wncman]

I must be a weirdo. I find building is almost more fun than actually shooting.

It does have a certain satisfaction and relaxed feel about it. Some might say Zen.
But it also make it yours

 

[CaptainVane]

Browning doesn’t peel.

Something is peeling. I will try to post a pic later or this weekend.

 

[Byron A Rudrow]

I must be a weirdo. I find building is almost more fun than actually shooting.

You’re not any weirder than me. The making and building all the manure that I need for this hobby is the best part! Guns, bags, horns, camp needs, personal needs, etc, etc, etc! Good thing I’m not married.

 

[TCMonts]

Hey, I can turm $1,500 worth of parts into a $300 gun but I think I'm going to start small and try to turn a couple hundred dollars worth of junk/spare parts into into a.n ugly but functional shooter.

 

[Mike in FL]

So, I have observed a trend here and other sites that have For Sale sections. Folks are wanting more for an unfinished kit than a ready-to-go factory finished example. I don't get it. First, the kit requires additional investment in time and money and resources. Then, there is at least potential for some mishap with putting the kit together. Lastly, historically all the guns identified as a finished "kit" command a lower price than a factory original. I am mostly referring to Lyman, CVA, Traditions, Pedersoli type kits. I understand that a kit from Kibler is a whole different thing - and a finished gun usually commands quite a bit higher price. But those "standard" kits - what's the deal? Why would someone pay more for one over a fully finished factory gun?

 

[RiverRat]

About 20 years ago I bought a Jim Chambers kit, a 54 cal smooth rifle, at the Dixon’s gun makers fair in PA. I asked Jim to recommend a builder to build the kit for me. He pointed to Mark WHELAND’s table. Mark charged me the cost of the kit, which was $800. Six months later I picked up my rifle and for a total cost of $1600, I have a BEAUTIFUL family airloom. Mark has built me 2 other rifles and 1 Fowler, which were scratched built. If it wasn’t for this forum, I would never heard of Dixon’s Gunmakers Fair, Jim Chambers, or Mark Wheland!

 

[Coinneach]

Yep there are a lot of guys who can turn 800.00 worth of parts into a 500.00 gun

I've adopted the historical persona of a drunken blind 18th century Tennessee gunsmith for my kit building projects, that way when I complete the job and its way beyond imperfect my conscience is clear.....

 

[azmntman]

Mee too! I identify as an old drunk mnt man! My pronouns are flint/hawk

 

[Mike in FL]

Me, I'd never buy a kit less historically accurate than the Kibler or one of the other accurate representations of a real muzzleloader. Having assembled one Kibler (took me 2 months so I would not screw it up) I now have the confidence to go again. Why waste time with a cheap factory kit that cannot have the grace and splendid authentic lines of a Kibler or Chambers? Yes, with a percussion CVA, Traditions or even a Pedersoli kit, you would have an accurate working gun, but it would never and could never give you the appreciation of a fine authentic rifle you know you'd rather have. I once bought a Lyman GPR kit. Only a few of the parts could me made to fit. The worst defect was that the barrel channel was so wide, there was a very visible distance on both sides of the barrel that a length of a rawhide string could have easily fit. How do you fix that? Another time I bought a finished TC "Hawken" having in mind stripping the stock and barrel finish in an attempt to create something on the lines of an original half stock hunting gun that might more resemble a real ml. After all the time invested in refinishing the wood, browning the barrel, and installing authentic Hawken sights, I learned that the drop in the stock was so shallow, that there was no way to shoulder it and see the new sights, because the original stock on that rifle and all TCs are as straight as a modern long gun. Not to mention the 28" barrel. I don't mean to say that those TC guns were not first rate in quality, but they do not resemble anything ever built in the era of muzzleloader weapons of the 18th and 19th century arms. Kill game and superbly punch targets, yes, but they and most other factory guns were authentic in design except that they were loaded from the front. My point is, that I, just I, want more than a legal hunting muzzleloader. All that sounds pompous, I know, but when one restricts himself to only using muzzleloaders and trying to live in the past, he/she has a need to do it right. Very sorry if I have offended or ruffled feathers; just responding to the thread.

 

[Coinneach]

Mee too! I identify as an old drunk mnt man! My pronouns are flint/hawk

We should run some workshops to help other kindred souls "larn the trade' !

 

[Coinneach]

About 20 years ago I bought a Jim Chambers kit, a 54 cal smooth rifle, at the Dixon’s gun makers fair in PA. I asked Jim to recommend a builder to build the kit for me. He pointed to Mark WHELAND’s table. Mark charged me the cost of the kit, which was $800. Six months later I picked up my rifle and for a total cost of $1600, I have a BEAUTIFUL family airloom. Mark has built me 2 other rifles and 1 Fowler, which were scratched built. If it wasn’t for this forum, I would never heard of Dixon’s Gunmakers Fair, Jim Chambers, or Mark Wheland!

I imported a Jim Chambers Isaac Haines Flintlock ML Rifle kit back in 2016, I'm still trying to get the Butt plate fitting right as the first step, scape scrape scrape.

 

[Coinneach]

I love doing it, just not good anymore, been like since 1979 since I built anything. I was good but I need time. When I retire I will do wood again, loved it. But my reply to the question is alot of guys feel if the screw it together they "built" it and it's a custom. Per above lotta sets of $800.00 parts that were bult into a rifle worth less than a well done CVA. I'm afraid that's me right about these days. I have kit ready to go before I stain my ITW kibbler though, I'm afraid I would screw even that up.

I think that many of us have been overwhelmed and intimidated with the Perfection imperative when it comes to building a Kit, sure lets do the best we can to get the fitting of metal to wood right but why agonise over it all ?
Dont get me wrong I really appreciate the fine precise work and historically accurate ML's, God knows I invested a small fortune in illustrated reference books over the decades; but I can't give the time to learn and perfect an equivalent craftsmanship to acceptably high standards.

As for carving I restrict myself to a little shallow incise carving rather than the more highly prized skilled relief carving.
I prefer to give more time to carefully tuning a Lock and Triggers with different grade grit paper than complicated carving.

 

[Coinneach]

I have a TC .50 Hawken Flinter. Bought in 1974 new. Was in a house fire in 2014. Urethane is bubbled, barrel browning is peeling. I cant find anyone to restore it.
I will reluctantly part with it as a kit rifle for the low low price of $800.
PM me if interested. Get now before demand increases price. Will throw in a couple of flints.
Guarantee no minie balls stuck in barrel.

Does the deal include a genuine bottle of Hacker Martins Browning recipe ?

 

[Coinneach]

You’re not any weirder than me. The making and building all the manure that I need for this hobby is the best part! Guns, bags, horns, camp needs, personal needs, etc, etc, etc! Good thing I’m not married.

Yep, in addition to the various grades of Vent picks, RB moulds; Patch knives; Flint and Tool wallets; hand made Powder measures (PMs)... (thank you Lord for Charlton Heston and Lamb shank bones worthy of PM making) all manner of Jags, Ramrods; Possible pouches; Shooting bags (each ML has to have its own) various shaped Hawks and their hand made blade covers; and general "Foo Foraah".

Psssst, can anyone recommend a covert supplier for inflatable Victoria Racimo ("Running Moon") facsimiles ?

 

[Sparkitoff]

We took a factory finished shotgun that had minor rust and scratches on barrel and many scratches and dents on the wood and re-did it. The wood-metal fit was very good already. The gun was $300. Stripped the barrels to bare metal and re-blackened perfectly. Removed finish from wood, sanded and re-finished. Added a few minor touches to make it personal. There was a cost of $28 for supplies. So, for $328 we have a like-new condition shotgun (bores are shiny bright). I've seen the same gun in kit form for as much as $800. To me, that's no advantage, that's $500 over-priced. However, I see the point some of you made about being able to fit and finish every little thing just the way you want it. Hard to put a price on that.

 

[mikesto44]

I'm also in the " I like to make my own stuff group " I get no satisfaction in finishing a kit that a company did basically all the work except for staining / finishing the metal. But to each their own. It's just not my thing. I would rather have a gun that I created albeit good, bad or ugly. It's the challenge of doing it with my own hands. Weird yes but I'm ok with it...lol