Kaido's 240gr Conical is a Keeper for sure

[Smokerr]

If you go with 777 I suspect you could get all the velocity you could possibly want.

I like to experiment, maybe load up a single chamber one of these days in the ROA and see how much you can put in there and what velocity. You could extrapolate to other revolvers.

I am not sure which is more indestructible, a 47 Walker or the ROA. ROA may (may) have metallurgy on its side but the Uberti has got some decent metallurgy and a heck of a lot of metal.

 

[dickydalton]

The Walker will hold more BP for sure but I wouldn't trust it with more than 40 grains and the Kaido. I have to use an off the gun cylinder loader and a hammer to get 35 grains and that 240 Kaido in an ROA cylinder.

 

[M. De Land]

I’ve been looking at the Hazard Waterproof cartridges as made by Crossen Cartridge formers. They’re compressed to a small degree but if the right powder cake were formed with say 30 grains of 4f and the 200 grain bullet above, it would be potent performer in the 1860 Army and of course the Remington. At least 45 acp levels…

Why is the powder cake formed in a taper instead of cylinder shape which has more volume ? Was this for the Thayere (sp) cartridge conversion chambers.

 

[M. De Land]

If you go with 777 I suspect you could get all the velocity you could possibly want.

I like to experiment, maybe load up a single chamber one of these days in the ROA and see how much you can put in there and what velocity. You could extrapolate to other revolvers.

I am not sure which is more indestructible, a 47 Walker or the ROA. ROA may (may) have metallurgy on its side but the Uberti has got some decent metallurgy and a heck of a lot of metal.

I inquired of an Uberti dealer some years back about the steel alloy used by Uberti in their receivers and was told it is 8620 equivalent which is plenty strong for black or smokeless loading but this steel alloy has the added benefit of being case harden-able.
I didn't ask if they used it in the cylinders of their revolvers though.
I'm pretty sure reading that Ballard rifle Co. of Cody Wyoming used 8620 in their rifles as well for smokeless pressure strength and case coloring ability.
I read ROA's use 4140 cm through out.
I could only get about 50 grains of 3F behind the 200 grain heeled base ACP bullet I swaged a bit to work in my Uberti Walker.
I had to about stand on them to get them seated deep enough to revolve even after swaging down the base band a bit to fit the cylinder chamber taper !
They shot high and a bit right but grouped well at 25 yards and I didn't get a chronograph reading.

 

[Bad Karma]

Why is the powder cake formed in a taper instead of cylinder shape which has more volume ? Was this for the Thayere (sp) cartridge conversion chambers.

I think he may have done so to be historically accurate. I wondered the same thing. I may dink around with this at some point. It’s interesting. He has a video in which he lays six cartridges in a saucer full of water. Leaves them there for a few minutes before loading them up and firing six full power shots. Kind of cool.

The Outlaw Kid from the other bp forum made paper cartridges that were perfect cylinders and used a pin gauge as his mandrel. They were really well made. He’s up in your country now. Interesting guy.

I’ll bet those loads were really hustling out of the old walker.

 

[Smokerr]

The 47 Walker is a seriously impressive piece of iron. It just dares you to maximize what you can get out of it (once in a while at least)

I have been trying to categorize it as its not anything normal as we are familiar with today. 450 Nitro Express Double Barrel comes to mind.

 

[M. De Land]

The 47 Walker is a seriously impressive piece of iron. It just dares you to maximize what you can get out of it (once in a while at least)

I have been trying to categorize it as its not anything normal as we are familiar with today. 450 Nitro Express Double Barrel comes to mind.

What stood out to me when I got her going was the unique sound of it's report, reminded me of the distinctive sound only a Harley Davidson or custom clone motor cycle makes.
I'm looking forward to getting a new front sight and loading lever latch on the ole girl and I'd like to make a cross draw half holster for it as well. I'm thinking a full holster would look more like a saddle bag or rifle scabbard.
Never cared for the spring latch holding up the loading lever. If it's strong enough to keep up the lever under recoil one has a really hard time getting it loose for loading with the bare fingers .

 

[dickydalton]

The one I bought from Jackrabbit works fine.

 

[M. De Land]

The one I bought from Jackrabbit works fine.

Yeah, that's what I kind of had in mind !

 

[M. De Land]

This bullet over 30+ grains of 4f or triple 7 is an excellent choice for thin skinned medium game like whitetail deer… very accurate in the ROA and also the Uberti colts.View attachment 306266

Sheesh, that big ole flat meplat would hit like a broad axe me thinks ! Wonder how straight a line it would track plowing through meat and bone? Kinda looks like it wouldn't take much to make it tumble being short and fat although if cast of # 2 lead/tin/antimony it might hold it's shape pretty well, Kieth bullets sure seem to. That slight radius on the nose might just be a good tiller to keep her lined out !

 

[Bad Karma]

Sheesh, that big ole flat meplat would hit like a broad axe me thinks ! Wonder how straight a line it would track plowing through meat and bone? Kinda looks like it wouldn't take much to make it tumble being short and fat although if cast of # 2 lead/tin/antimony it might hold it's shape pretty well, Kieth bullets sure seem to. That slight radius on the nose might just be a good tiller to keep her lined out !

I’ve swatted a couple coyotes with it but nothing bigger so far. Goes through a yote like its a paper bag.

I would expect excellent performance from this one on deer though. All of my best handgun bullets have that same wide flat nose and they generally make a long wide straight wound channel. If cast of an alloy, say 30 or even 20:1 they barely change shape unless they hit substantial bone.

 

[RiverRat]

I’ve been looking at the Hazard Waterproof cartridges as made by Crossen Cartridge formers. They’re compressed to a small degree but if the right powder cake were formed with say 30 grains of 4f and the 200 grain bullet above, it would be potent performer in the 1860 Army and of course the Remington. At least 45 acp levels…

I love this forum, what can I say, I keep learning and learning and learning…

 

[azmntman]

Thats good. Between me and the wife we know everything already.

 

[M. De Land]

Today was the first time out with the 240 grain Kaido Conicals I cast from my mold. They did very well out of my Uberti NMA with standard sights and Slix Shot Nipples. The revolver shot it's best group with a 30 grain charge. That load is stout, and that bullet hit the back stop at 40 meters with authority. 30 grains is the limit, the bullets are right near the top of the cylinder. If any more power is needed which I doubt, triple 7 may be the answer to that. The pic is the last 12 shots with the 30 grain charge @ 25 yards. They hit to point of aim when I do my part and as you can see a few times I did not. While they may have been fliers, I'm still saying it was me. But in all any one of them is meat on the table.

What is the velocity I wonder, 700-750 fps? I'm wondering with BP and substitute velocities if a 200 grain flat points might not be a better hunting bullet weight with plenty of penetration weight and are flatter shooting?
Heavier bullets are a good choice in modern 44-45's because you can run them 11-1200 fps for some pretty good hand gun trajectories.
Kicking some ideas around !

 

[rodwha]

I think they are a bit to heavy/ long for best all around use in black powder revolvers in .44 cal. My guess is that some where around 200-210 grains with the same nose profile would be a better balance, plenty heavy for hunting penetration and knock down, shoot faster and have better trajectory.

I disagree to some degree. I’ve tested my Pietta NMA and ROA with many projectiles using both 3F Olde Eynsford and Triple 7 and found that despite the projectile used the more accurate load stayed the same. That was a weighed 33 grns of Olde E in the NMA and 38 In my ROA. Measuring the space in the chambers and configuring for slight powder variances, a possible thin cardboard card, and space to keep gas cutting from eating the noses there’s enough room for a very WFN bullet of about 235 grns. And I’ve debated if I’d sacrifice a sliver of the accuracy and power for a little more penetration and a rounded number that sounds better than 235.

 

[rodwha]

Because your not getting anywhere near that velocity with that heavy of bullet in most .44s shooting black powder and I doubt it with the synthetics, more like 900 fps if your lucky ! Heck the 147 grain balls aren't even going 1200 fps with the powder space available in anything but the Walker.

Yeah, what I’ve found with what little posted information there is, using an energetic powder like Olde E, Swiss, or T7 you can expect maybe about 850 fps with a maxed charge, it’s roughly equivalent to a .45 ACP somewhere between standard and +P depending on who you talk to. I tend to take a conservative stance until I see enough to think otherwise. My own chronograph would do the trick!

 

[rodwha]

Looking at my notes, with Pyro Pellets and Triple 7 - I was getting 1100 FPS out of an NMA and not trying.

I figure I could push the loads to 1200 fps with .454 ball and up past that with .451.

Still, trajectory for a BP going 850 fps with a 147 gr ball is more mortar like. Technically its a trajectory but its a looping one. Mortars have fins to help them out!

There’s been a couple of tests with varying ball sizes and the velocity actually goes up slightly with each increase of ball size. The increased friction from the increased bearing surface of the larger ball apparently creates more pressure along with the slight increase in mass, a few grains here or there with a ball.

 

[rodwha]

Mike B, got 900fps with the 240 Kaido and a 40 grain charge of black. I'm not so sure I can get 40 grs under that bullet in mine. He did say he had to really work for it to load that charge. At any rate a 30-35 grain charge and that bullet should have no problems putting a SC white tail in the freezer at a reasonable range.

I’ve been looking at the Hazard Waterproof cartridges as made by Crossen Cartridge formers. They’re compressed to a small degree but if the right powder cake were formed with say 30 grains of 4f and the 200 grain bullet above, it would be potent performer in the 1860 Army and of course the Remington. At least 45 acp levels…

Interesting. This goes against records shown for the Hazard’s .44 cal paper cartridge, but also what someone who tested some actual cartridges. The conicals weighed 211 grns and the powder charge was 36 grns of 4F powder equivalent to Swiss powder.

 

[45D]

Yeah, what I’ve found with what little posted information there is, using an energetic powder like Olde E, Swiss, or T7 you can expect maybe about 850 fps with a maxed charge, it’s roughly equivalent to a .45 ACP somewhere between standard and +P depending on who you talk to. I tend to take a conservative stance until I see enough to think otherwise. My own chronograph would do the trick!

The Hornady +p's I shoot are 220gr JHP running 1000fps out of a 5" barrel. Don't know what they're doing out of my 8" bbl's with tight .002" endshake.
( just referencing 45acp +p's)

Mike

 

[rodwha]

The Hornady +p's I shoot are 220gr JHP running 1000fps out of a 5" barrel. Don't know what they're doing out of my 8" bbl's with tight .002" endshake.
( just referencing 45acp +p's)

Mike

From what little data that’s been posted by people using sporting grade power and bullets one could expect to see 875-950 fps with a 230 grn bullet. And that’s with the 5.5” shorter version like my NMA. And someone else stated theirs was getting even higher results. I’m a bit skeptical. Even at standard .45 ACP levels it’s no joke. If it’s a little spicier all the better. If I want more spice I can just use the Ruger.

Mr Belivideau’s results using reduced charges of Triple 7 behind Kaido’s 255 grn version got awful close to 500 ft/lbs, and I’d venture to guess that same 25 grn charge would fit under the 240 grn bullet in a repro. That’s well within +P.