• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Ithica Navy Arms .50 Hawken Range Report

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Dave Rosenthal

70 Cal.
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Messages
4,470
Reaction score
23
Well guys, finally got a chance to report back to you all on the efforts at sighting-in the $99.00 Hawken that I bought at a local gun shop.

It LOVES PRB's! Using a .018 pre-lubed pillow-ticking patch and a .490 ball, we had to use a mallot on the short starter to get it down the throat! At 25 yards off-hand my Son put on a show! 50x50-3x, with almost one ragged hole!

At longer ranges, we had to switch to a .015 pre-lubed patch to hit square on the paper at 100 yards...probably due to mis-shaping of the ball as it's hammered into place with the rubber mallot! With a clean barrel, I hit the ten ring all day long from the bench! After about 4 shots, it started to open-up some group wise. You folks that swear by cleaning a PRB rifle after each shot are so RIGHT, as far as this rifle is concerned!

I think that I got my $99.00 worth, that's for sure!

Dave
 
Little :hmm: here you shouldn't have to use a mallet to push the prb down the barrel? Strange, especially if the barrel is clean. Maybe U should try a thinner patch, my not have to use a mallet with a thinner patch. :thumbsup:
 
Gotta go with Doe here. Try a .015" or .010" lubed patch if starting a patched ball is that tough. Should be firm but shouldn't need pounding.
 
$99.00,!!?? You got one heck of a good deal. Good shooters and nice looking rifles. You may want to try a smaller ball and a thicker patch if the thinner patches manure out on ya.
 
i think they're right, smokin.50... you got a great deal, but yo should consider a looser ball/patch combination... you shouldn't need to whack the thing with a hammer to get it loaded!
 
I have one of these rifles but mine was from when Ithaca just took over the rifle from Cherry Corners. Great deal on yours since my kit alone cost more than that in 1978. The ball size is fine but go to a thinner patch. I don't have to use force to seat a ball like that.
 
Hey guys,

Guessed you all missed that part where I said that we switched to a .015 patch--or I didn't write it well enough last night!

With the .015 patch we hit the bullseye all day, and the load was easy enough to short-start by hand, with no need for the mallot!

We experimented with wads over the powder charge, and the patches came-out almost clean enough to use over again :) !

Thanks to all for the advice on the .015 patches. My main question now is should I clean after every shot or swab the bore after loading it for consistancy's sake? Do I use a lubed patch to do this or one wet with bore cleaner?

Dave
 
I would clean mine after shooting for the day. As long as it loads just keep having fun. This cleaning after every shot is a modern thing foisted upon us by the inliners.
 
You can make a patch damp in your mouth or use a bit of alcohol on it or water from from your drinking bottle or canteen. You dont need to make the patch sloppy wet.
 
Cleaning after each shot has been done for long before anyone dreamed of making a zip gun! If you want the best accuracy, clean between shots. Use a dampened cleaning patch and push it down to within 1 inch of the breechplug, or the constriction in the patent breech. Then pull it back out and examine it. If the residue is shiny and oily looking, turn the patch over, and run the patch down the barrel again. bring it back out. There will be more black residue but it should not be wet looking. Now get another clean patch out, and run it down the barrel, but this time take it all the way to the breechplug, or to the constriction. This will prevent you from pushing large amounts of residue into that reduced diameter powder chamber in those patent breech guns, and if you are shooting a standard flintlock, with a flat breechplug, the second patch will clean the residue off the face of the breech. When you pull the patch out, again look at the residue. If its wet looking, flip the patch over and send it down again. The whole point of the activity is to remove as much residue from the grooves and lands of the barrel, but not push them into your flash channel, or against the breechplug, where they are much harder to clean out.

In humid conditions with high temperatures, the Relative humidity may require the use of a third cleaning patch to dry the barrel completely. Residue will begin absorbing moisture from the humidity the instant the ball leaves the muzzle. so just check those patches to tell you how the barrel is reacting to the humdity.

I run my patches down hand over hand, and then down 1/4 of the barrel at a time, pulling back at each quarter, a little before pushing it down the next quarter, This technique blouses the cleaning patch on the jag, so the residue is trapped in the groove of the jag, and are not simply being pushed down the barrel. When you pull the patch out, those grooves in the jag grab the fabric, blouse it, so it gets into those grooves deeper and pulls out the crud. The cleaning patch is actually sliding over that crud on its way down the barrel.

Cleaning between shots has been done by target shooters, and hunters who want that second ball to hit the same place as their first shot, when the ranges are longer. If you are plinking and shooting at close targets that are larger than a bottle cap, it doesn't matter as much. The other reason we clean between shots is so we don't find ourselves with a ball stuck half way down the barrel, reminding us that we should have cleaned the barrel after the last shot. :hmm: :surrender: :thumbsup:
 
Thanks Paul!

You just saved me the time involved in finding this exact advice in another thread from long ago that I thought I'd remembered, but didn't!

It's interesting to note that my Son was able to shoot the middle of the X-ring out of a target at 25 yards while using the too-tight .018 pre-lubed pillow-ticking patch, ala a chunck gun but without the false muzzle! Hammering the ball down with a mallot on the short starter didn't seem to bother the accuracy at 25 yards (scored a 50x50-3X, with the 2 10's being the "fliers", only cause they made different holes! :shocked2: The ball didn't get a chance to be affected by the "obduration"? I think that's what an Engineer friend of mine told me.

At longer than "chunck" distances, the beat-up ball flies off the target and misses the paper completely! When I switched to the .015 pre-lubed patch, it went down the bore fine and hit the 10-ring several times, before the accumulation of fouling caused the accuracy to suffer.

What say you about the beat-up ball taking-out the X-ring up close and not hitting the paper at 100 yards?

Dave
 
Dave: The ball is spinning at its highest rate of spin just as it leave the muzzle. That centrifugal force will keep the misshapen ball on line to that short target. But the spin begins to slow down just as its forward movement begins to slow. Remember these RBs have a terrible BC! That .490", .50 caliber RB has a BC of .057! Its sheds velocity like a balloon. When the spinning begins to drop down below a certain level, and the forward motion also slow, the misshapened ball now is affected by the air, and winds, and everything else, including the sound barrier. That is why a ball that drives "X's" at 25 yards, can miss that 50 yard target. the effect is even more pronouced at 100 yards.

The word is Obterate, and refers to the ball upsetting and filling, or trying to fill the grooves of the rifling. One of the reasons patch thickness needs to be fairly close to the groove depth is so that the Ball will NOT obturate so much that it loses its round shape entirely.

Shoot a round ball, with a small charge, into a bucket of water( or barrel if you have it), so you can recover the ball without it hitting anything solid. That is how you can see what your loading technique, size of patching, the amount of force used to get it into the muzzle, etc. affect the ball. A good fit will be a ball that shows some weave pattern embossed on its surfaces, some slight flattening caused by the lands, but basically a round ball that still has a round nose, and a round back end. The inertia of a PRB is light enough, assuming the ball is the usual undersized lead ball wrapped in a lubed patch, that the bottom should not be flattened when it is fired. If so, are you using FFFg instead of FFg powder? Try the FFg and see if the ball does not stay more round.

I dealt with all this stuff with my first rifle, a .45 caliber. I began shooting a .445 ball, because that is what someone " TOLD ME " to use. I did not measure the bore, or anything. I had thin, .005" patches. They allowed me to get the ball down the barrel, but they burned holes in them with the FFFg powder charge- which was 45 grains to start. I finally got it to hit sometimes at 25 yards, but had all kinds of flyers at 50 yards. I switched to .440 balls and a .010" patch. That worked much better, the ball was not distorted by pounding it in the muzzle with my short starter, and all of a sudden I started getting better accuracy at 50 yards. I had a chance to fire the gun into a barrel of water, to recover some balls, so I took both my .445 and my .440 balls, some powder, both sized patches, caps, and some cleaning fluid. The patches floated on the surface of the water and were easy to recover. We used some kind of stick to pick the balls out of the bottom, and you could clearly see that the large ball was terribly misshapened just from loading it, even with the .005" patches. The .440 ball, and its .010" patch were both in better shape, and intact. Whwere the weave of the .005 fabric was clearly impressed in the lead, and clearly visible, over a wide flattened surface, the .440 ball showed less weave, and the weave that appeared was less distinct. I think I used 25 grains of FFFg for those tests, but that was more than 30 years ago. I am allowed to be a little fuzzy in my memory about that after all this time has passed, and I had no need to recall it.

I did watch other members of the club struggle with their guns claiming they weren't accurate, etc. when all that was wrong was their choice of loading components. When we convinced them the guns could shoot off a rest, they still could not hit targets, because they didn't know shooting fundamentals, and would not ask for instruction, or take it if offered. It takes all kinds of people. I told the club members when I agreed to be the club's attorney, that If I bought a rifle, I expected them to help me learn how to load and clean it, and then I was expecting them to help me learn how to be a good shot. They all laughed, until I did acquire that .45, and I kept my word. I asked the dumbest questions, but I learned.
 
Paul while I agree with all you say....why is it[url] some..again[/url] some like my Ithac and 53 Sante Fe (same rifle almost) seems to like a fouling shot or two first then starts shooting one holers? ( look back on the "Hawken Pages" I had 5 shots you could cover with a nickel at 50 yds only after fouling shots??) Thanks Fred :hatsoff: ( if this helps it was 490, 015, and 85grs 3f and 520 ball rest the same on other one.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I am not familiar with either model rifle. Do they have powder chambers, like a patent breech? If so, its often the case where oil remains in the back of he barrel, or in the powder chamber, that does not get cleaned out until a couple of shots have been fired. The other reason may have to do with the bedding of the barrel to the stock, and how tight or loose the barrel key(s) are. Sometmes these guns have to recoil a couple of times for them to set BACK into a fixed position. This was the case with a friend's rifle, years ago, that shot like that, but once in awhile would put another ball into that original " clean-barrel-group". If he bumped the barrel, or pulled the key out to show someone, the next shot might go into that first group. He used some Epoxy bedding compound to bed the tang, and the barrel for the area from the breech to the first key, and that seemed to end the problem.

Does any of that help?

Paul
 
Paul,

Thanks so much for the clarification of the "bent-outta-shape" balls! It's all coming-back to me now...I remember most of what you just wrote from a pevious thread when I was a lot newer to muzzle loading.

The idea with the water bucket could be turned-into a League-wide event during warmer weather, and I imagine the same principles would apply to single-shot ML pistols as well! When it gets warmer, I'll have to remind myself to start looking for a bucket big enough to do the job. Do you think that a 5-gal. joint compound pail will be big enough, or should we custom-build a wooden carrier to hold a large garbage can at an angle sufficient to clear the top by the average 5.5' adult?

From the looks of it, it seems that the only right way to hit the bull at 100 yards with PRB (with THIS rifle, anyway), is to keep the bore relatively clean. Since the 100 yard relay is the last one for the day at our League, I think that I'll use two rangerods to speed things up a little bit...a brush on one and a jag on the other. This way everyone else that doesn't clean between shots won't be waiting all day for me to get done shooting so that the scores can be tabulated and the winners determined.

Thanks again for all of the help!

Dave
 
If you use 10 grain powder charges, the 5 gal bucket will do. But if you let guys use full powered loads, even a large garbage can may find it has developed unwanted leaks. Remember, that when that ball hits the surface of the water, there is no guarantee that it will continue on the same line of travel, particularly if its spinning fast from high velocity or a pistol sized, Fast ROT. That is why I am cautioning that squib loads be used for this. The ball won't expand quite as much as it does under a full house load, but It is soft lead, and will expand. Otherwise, you may need a swimming pool to catch the balls.
 
Most of my shooting was done with round bottom grooves, spit patches, and shooting in timed events (woods walks). There was no time for cleaning after each and every shot. For some reason the powder fouling remained soft and the rifle loaded just fine shot after shot with no degradation of accuracy. I won my fair share of booty, booze, and hams over the years so it worked for me. The rifle was cleaned at the end of the day.
 
Paul all that is a "could be" but it's happened on a underhammer or two I'm thinking "maybe the pitch of the rifleing"? I've got a non H+A kind of uh that shoots 400 to 600 gr slugs and it likes a shot of 20 to 30 grs first before it will go right omn target and its dry as can be as well as nothing holding the barrel" Just one of those things I guess. Thanks. Fred :hatsoff:
 

Latest posts

Back
Top