Info on repro Enfield, please?

[Canuck Bob]

Info needed on repro Enfield P58 and P61?

I'm starting to shop for an Enfield P58 2 band or P61 Musketoon model.

What do folks think of the Italian models including the Parker Hale versions, both new and used?

Does anyone know how to tell if the PH is British built or Italian built. I've researched but need an idea from the SN as inspection of marks may not be possible.

This is for my Canadian interests and not for the ACW repros.

Thanks
Bob

 

[curator]

British made Parker Hale will have Birmingham proof marks and original "English" threads on screws and 5/16X18 Musket nipple. Italian made Enfields will have Italian proof marks and metric threads on screws and 8X1.25mm Musket nipple. If you get the Italian 2-band rifle look for ones that have the 5-groove "progressive" rifling over the ones with 3-groove barrels.

 

[Artificer]

Bob,

As one who did "Trigger Jobs" for many years at NSSA Spring and Fall National Championships on both REAL UK Parker Hale and Italian Enfields, there is a WORLD a difference in the quality of the REAL UK Parker Hales vs anything else. They were/are as good or better than the originals AND original "Interchangeable Pattern" Parts will correctly fit and function in them.

That was the reason I bought the REAL UK Parker Hale even though it cost more and I shot a LOT more often with blanks while reenacting a Confederate States Marine, though I did fire it a good number of times with live rounds.

I would suggest the P1858 for accuracy and hunting; though the P1861 is good at short ranges.

Gus

 

[Canuck Bob]

Thank you both. Ongoing research supports everything you guys said. The rifle for me will be a P58 or P61 1st generation PH Enfield. I'll wait till a nice one comes up but am leaning toward the P61 now. I started out interested in the 2 band Naval pattern. The P61 now interests me because I found out it was the Enfield Artillery pattern. They were issued to Canadian Artillery Militia units. I'm an old Militia Soldier from the RCA. I'm a gunner, 105 howitzer trained from the days of the FN battle rifle.

Making sure a repro is an early British PH is complicated. The name got transferred to Italy using PH barrels for awhile. Then all Italian manufacture and finally purchase of the name by an American firm but Italian guns. Kinda like Remington. Any tips anyone has are welcome.

It appears the progressive depth rifling is a PH barrel attribute only. The nipple threads are 5/16X18 and the Italian is 8MM. There is some confusion regarding SNs so most folks want proof mark info to date. It has been a lot of fun researching.

Edit: Forgot you informed me about the different threads curator.

 

[TFoley]

Parker Hale serial numbers, manufacturing runs:
0000 to about 9000 -- made in Birmingham, England.
About 9000 to 14000 -- Birmingham barrels, rest of rifle made in Italy.
Over about 14000 -- Italian made, entirely.

As noted above, English-made complete guns and barrels will bear Birmingham proof marks and load details.

Italian-made barrels will bear the usual sets of Italian proof marks - Gardone Val Trompia coat of arms, PN in a square cartouche, 'black powder only', and a date code in a cartouche.

With thanks to canadiangunnutz.com

 

[F.G. Ford]

Hi,
As said above there is a world of difference between the Original Parker Hale (1980's vintage ) and the Italian version.
Beg, borrow, or steal a real Parker Hale to compare to your potential purchase.
You will see the difference.
There was a new/old Parker Hale on GunNutz a short time ago.
I will see if I can find it.
Presently there are two 1861 two band musketoon's for sale. One is new in the box, and the other is used but very good condition.
Fred

 

[Artificer]

As a short term follower of St. Barbara, I can understand your interest in the Artillery Musketoon. After all, Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. (In the early 1990's, I was the first Ordnance Officer in the 1st Marine Division, who was a Senior Enlisted Marine since WWII and each Firing Battery still had some M105 Howitzers.)

However, even if you use the period British sighting techniques, that short barrel on the Artillery Musketoon will shoot WAY high at distances of 50 and 100 yards. This can be "fixed" by low temp silver soldering on a replacement tall front sight as linked below and then filing it down to suit your eyesight. http://www.lodgewood.com/Tall-Shooter-Front-Sight-for-Original-Reproduction-Muskets_p_561.html

Actually the same tall front sight is often/usually needed on the P1858 for 50 and 100 yard shooting as well.

Gus

 

[Canuck Bob]

Thank you all very much. I bought the P61 PH first gen on the EE Fred. It ships tomorrow and I will include pictures when it arrives. Artif... one of my fondest memories was a shoot with the Artillery unit at Yakima Wash. The American equipment was outstanding compared to our Korean vintage iron. However in true Royal Canadian Artillery fashion we hit what we were ordered to hit with devastating precision.

 

[Artificer]

That doesn't surprise me at all. Throughout my 26 year career, I came across Royal Marines, and the Royal Army of the UK, Australia and Canada. I always found they were generally superbly trained, even though they often/usually did not have the equipment they should have had.

Now when you get your Musketoon in hand, the next thing is to get a highly accurate bore measurement so you can cast the Minie' Bullets oversize and then "size" or "swage" them down to the diameter that shoots best in your Musketoon.

Gus

 

[Canuck Bob]

Artificer, do you have a link to your casting and sizing advice. Or perhaps a quick elaboration. The rifle comes with a Lee Minie mold but I don't know which one. I am setting up to cast.

I will also try patched balls. However my range is set-up to 500 meters so some long range shooting is in order with Minie balls.

I would like to thank you and all American Service People. We and most of the world owe so much and have returned so little to such brave soldiers, sailors, and a bit grudgingly even the air force.

I salute you and them.

 

[TFoley]

That doesn't surprise me at all. Throughout my 26 year career, I came across Royal Marines, and the Royal Army of the UK, Australia and Canada. I always found they were generally superbly trained, even though they often/usually did not have the equipment they should have had.

Gus

That's why the Americans with whom we had dealings in two Gulf Wars, Kosovo/Bosnia and Afghanistan, call us 'Borrowers', after the children's stories of the same name.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

The British made Parker Hale muskets are tremendously superior in quality and historical detail to anything Italian. They are worth seeking out. The spaghetti rifles? Not so much.

 

[Artificer]

Bob,

The only thing I can say about casting those huge Minie' Balls is the same as casting large Brown Bess Balls. Have a large dipper so you can quickly fill a mold before it cools too quick and wrinkles/deforms the balls or use one of the large Production Pots. Also, don't save balls that are just "OK." Put them back into the pot and only take the best ones possible. Too easy for Minie' Ball Skirts to come loose and get stuck in the bore if they are not cast well.

It took me a while to learn how to precisely measure the bore size on a Minie' Ball Rifle with a precision dial caliper and I had some good mentors to show me. I can do it, but don't think I can write a good enough explanation on how to do it. It is VERY important to get as exact of a measurement as possible.

To get an exact measurement of the bore size, some folks have suggested using expanding ball gauges and I have suggested using precision pin gauges that many Machinists/Machine Shops use. If you can measure or have your bore measured that way, you want to swage the diameter of your Minie' Balls to .001" to .002" below the precision bore measurement. So for example if the bore is .577", you want to swage the ball size down to either .576" or .575" diameter and the only way to tell which your Musketoon will shoot more accurately is to try both sizes.

You need a precision bullet sizer for this. The ones I used are no longer made, but Lodgewood MFG. has these two: http://www.lodgewood.com/Precision-Sizing-Die-with-Plunger_p_1605.html
and http://www.lodgewood.com/Lubrisizer-Sizing-Die_p_509.html

I would suggest calling them after you have the exact bore measurement of your Musketoon and find out which is better for you.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

This is for both you and Bob,

I never considered the fine troops from Australia, the UK or Canada to be "borrowers." I did consider them Brothers in Arms and darned glad to have them. When a Brother needs something and is there with you, you loan or give it to them. Same thing amoung our own U.S. Armed Service or Armed Services.

"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother...."

Gus

 

[F.G. Ford]

Hello again,
If you cannot buy these sizing dies, I can machine what ever size you need.
To accurately measure your bore, you can put a large enough piece of denim in the bore swab some oil in the bore, insert a threaded rod ( threaded brass is good) in the center of the bore, heat the barrel a little, then pour a large soup spoon full of molten lead in the bore.
Let it cool, pull it out and measure the slug.
If any of the denim stays in the bore, you can pour some powder in the nipple passage, seat the remaining denim on the powder, then shoot it out.
You can also remove the denim ( if any ) with an under size wire brush. ( I repeat UNDER SIZE wire brush)

 

[F.G. Ford]

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother...."

As Bob has said above, we, all of Canada give you thanks for our safe life and home, and give prayers and remember those who have given their all. :hatsoff:
Fred

 

[Stantheman86]

[/img]

I just picked up a Birmingham produced 1861 Musketoon, by far the most reliable and well made muzzleloader I've ever owned.

This rifle put the fun back into muzzleloading for me, it's accurate with .570 round balls and .005 patches, they load easy and shoot fine. I haven't tried a tighter patch yet.

Shoots well with .575 Minies. I put about 100 round balls and 20 or so Minies over my last two range trips, using Rio and RWS musket caps, went bang every time with Goex 2F. I fired at targets from 25-100, even at 25 yards I just aim low and shoot at silhouette "bad guy" targets. These are very accurate but I'm still getting used to the very short barrel, hard to group off hand at 100. The barrels on these are even shorter than my T/C Renegades.

 

[jimhallam]

I often have PH M-L rifles, especially when Club members pass on. The P1861s are generally little used as they are not the best thing for most MLAGB comps (the 10 ex 13 MLAIC precision at 100m).
SOME of the P1861s have FIVE grooves (made from over-runs of the P1858 Naval Rifle) and these need a different bullet, i.e., NOT the deep cavity but the shallow one.
I must admit that I am tempted to bring a couple of "musketoons" to the Jan Vegas Show or to Baltimore.
The problem is not the weight but the Customs guys stateside -- and as for the TSA when taking stuff back !!!!!!!

 

[TFoley]

What's the serial number of your Musketoon? Please omit the last couple of digits if you are concerned about security....mine is 1167, bought in 1974.

 

[Stantheman86]

I'll have to check when I get home , I actually bought 2 of them from the same guy....the one in the pic is 1100's if I recall and the other one is 8000 something.

I have found that the pictured musketoon doesn't shoot well with Minies or Pritchett bullets but does well with .570 round balls.....I haven't fired the other one. Now I have to check to see how many grooves are in the bores too....

At 50 yards I'm shooting ragged holes with RB,haven't fired RB to 100 yet...... but out to 100 I'm shooting buckshot patterns with Brett from paper cartridges.com Pritchetts. I haven't tried 1.5f as he directed only 2f so I don't know. I may have to accept that this musketoon is a round ball shooter.....I didn't plan to shoot the other one but may have to at some point.