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How to remove a cock from the tumbler

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CrackStock

69 Cal.
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I was trying to inlet a lockplate to a stock and was disassembling the lock for this purpose. In doing this, I used two screwdrivers from opposing directions but managed to snap the tumbler shaft when I got too aggressive on one side. :cursing: The thing must have been beaten on with a sledge hammer when assembled. How do they expect us to build a gun without removing these parts?

The questions are:

How tight should this be?

Do you file the square shaft slightly to ease removal? (Provided you can remove it initially)

and

How do you get these off without breaking the tumbler?

CS
 
Howdy Crackstock -
funny you should ask, as there was just a recent thread on this topic HERE

a quick summary - you can try to drive it off with a properly sized punch, or buy a hammer puller.

You don't mention the lock maker but I have noticed on the cheap imports that very little attention is paid to fit, and the hammers appear to be driven on with hydraulics!

best
shunka
 
Crackstock,

After removing all the internals and the screw that hold the cock in place, I set my locks on a small piece of maple with a wide groove cut out where the tumbler sits. The block gives a backing for the lock plate, and clearance for the tumbler. Put a pin punch down through the hole int the tumbler shaft, (make sure it's small enough not to bugger up the threads), and give it a couple of whacks with a hammer. I've removed some really tough cocks this way with great results.
I've built over 30 guns, and repaired a dozen more without ever using a hammer puller.
Hope this helps. :hmm:
 
Mike,

Actually, it is a large Siler. I have several and none of the earlier ones had this problem.

Shunka,

I have seen the lock puller from L&R. They were a bit proud of it, but then I just paid for almost half of one without having even a part of it now! Maybe it is time to go ahead and get the right tool. Excpept...

I just think that there is little need to press them on so tightly -- especially on a kit where it is known that you will be needing to pull this part off to fit before doing anything else with the lock and it is also know that you will need to take it apart to finish it.


SmallPatch,

Thanks for the info. That thread all took place while I was in New Orleans, so it all slipped past me -- a shame because it would have saved me some trouble.

As to Rich's idea, I was concerned that this fit was so tight that I might damage the threads if I tapped on the cock screw. I had forgotten, but like the idea of driving it through the lockplate with an appropriately sized punch. This will be my future method when they do not just pop off immediately.

Thanks to all,
CS
 
Although I posted this in answer to a question in the regular Muzzleloading Forum, I'll copy it here for future reference for builders.
There may be things I left out so if anyone sees something missing, please feel free to add it.


Disassembly and reassembly of a sidelock isn't that hard.
I would strongly recommend that a mainspring vise be bought and used.

Also, be sure to have screw drivers that actually fit the screw slots. "Close" won't do.

My method of dissassembling a lock goes something like this:
1. Remove the lock from the stock.

2. Bring the hammer/cock to the full cocked position.

3. Place the mainspring vise on the mainspring and tighten the screw only enough to secure it firmly in place. (Do not try to compress the spring).

4. Push upward on the sear arm and lower the hammer/cock to the fired positon.

5. Carefully examine the mainspring to see if any screws are attaching it to the lock plate. If there is, remove the screw. If there is not, gently rotate the spring/vise clockwise to disengage the springs upper tang from the bolster.
Using gentle rotation, the spring should be pulled off of the lockplate. Put it in a safe place where it won't fall to the floor.
NOTE: If the lock is of the newer lock design (like some L&R locks) there is a small link which connects the mainspring to the tumbler. Use a piece of paper and draw which way the S bend in this link is going relative to the lock. This must be put back exactly as it is. If it is reversed, it will bind up and possibly break.
On my L&R Bedford, starting from the lower crosspin, it goes up and forward somewhat like a S, not a backward S.

6. Loosen the screw holding the sear spring in place at least 3 turns.

7. Using some needle nose pliers or a knife, disengage the sear spring tab from the sideplate by pulling it outward. When the tab has cleared the slot, rotate the spring counterclockwise away from the sear.

8. Remove the sear screw and the sear.

9. (for bridled locks) (The bridle is the part that fits over the tumbler. It has a hole in it for the axel on the inner side of the tumbler.) Find the location of the fly in the tumbler and keep an eye on it. It is easily lost.

10. Remove the bridle screws. Pay special attention to the shape of the fly and which direction it is installed.
With Silar locks it has a cast pin sticking out of the side of it so you can't put it together backwards. With the L&R locks the fly is a small irregularly shaped plate on a pin. It must be reassembled in exactly the same position that you find it. If it is assembled backwards it will not work correctly. (Draw a picture of it in the tumbler).
11. Remove the hammer/cock screw.

12. Support the lockplate on two blocks (or on the top of a vise with the jaws open about 3/4 inch). Do not be tempted to pry the hammer off of the tumbler with screw drivers or anything like that. Not only will you gouge the lockplate but there is a good chanch that you will break the very hard tumbler.

13. If you have a square punch that will fit inside the square hole in the hammer use it for removing the hammer/cock. If you don't, find a steel rod that will fit down inside the threads minor diameter and bottom out in the drilled hole.
This pin should not be dead soft like a nail and it should not be very hard like a drill bit. The soft steel can deform in the bottom of the hole and become locked in place by the threads. The very hard pin can shatter from hitting it).
Using a small hammer, tap the punch or pin down so it drives the tumbler out of the hammers square drive.

14. For a Flintlock frizzen, lightly compress the spring and remove the screw holding it in place.
This is one place that locking pliers will work. Use a piece of brass sheet metal to prevent the serrated teeth on the pliers from marring the spring. Lightly compress the spring so the frizzen is free to rotate a little.
NOTE: do not compress the spring any more than you have to to release the pressure on the frizzen. If you over compress it, you may break it.

15. With the frizzen spring removed, remove the screw securing the frizzen.
Do not try to remove the wheel if there is one on the spring or frizzen.

Re-assembly should be done in the reverse order.

You may lightly tap the hammer back onto the frizzen drive, but if you can get at least three threads of the hammer screw engaged, IMO it is best to just tighten the screw to seat out the hammer on the square drives shoulders.

When you replace the sear spring, (if you removed it from the lock plate) after the sear is in place, screw the spring back on the lockplate but do not tighten the screw.
Use your thumb to push the back of the spring downward and towards the lockplate. It will bend and the tab will engage the plate's slot almost automatically. Then tighten the screw.

Don't forget the fly when you reinstall the tumblers bridle.
If you are working on a late design lock with a mainspring link, double check your sketch to make sure it is installed correctly.

The bridle screw that goes thru the sear needs to be snug but not overly tightened. If you overtighten it, the sear will not rotate freely like it needs to do to do it's job.

To remove the mainspring vise, bring the lock to the full cock position, loosen the thumbscrew and remove the vise.

IMO: You can do this job without a mainspring vise but you risk breaking the mainspring with things like locking pliers.
.Locking pliers concentrate their load all in one place rather than spreading it out like the vise does. On locks like the Davis Jeager and French fusil locks it is almost sure to break the spring (don't ask how I know).
 
I sure broke the mainspring on my Davis Jaeger with a vise-grip tool just like you said. I now have a mainspring vise.
 
Although I posted this in answer to a question in the regular Muzzleloading Forum, I'll copy it here for future reference for builders.
There may be things I left out so if anyone sees something missing, please feel free to add it.


Disassembly and reassembly of a sidelock isn't that hard.
I would strongly recommend that a mainspring vise be bought and used.

Also, be sure to have screw drivers that actually fit the screw slots. "Close" won't do.

My method of dissassembling a lock goes something like this:
1. Remove the lock from the stock.

2. Bring the hammer/cock to the full cocked position.

3. Place the mainspring vise on the mainspring and tighten the screw only enough to secure it firmly in place. (Do not try to compress the spring).

4. Push upward on the sear arm and lower the hammer/cock to the fired positon.

5. Carefully examine the mainspring to see if any screws are attaching it to the lock plate. If there is, remove the screw. If there is not, gently rotate the spring/vise clockwise to disengage the springs upper tang from the bolster.
Using gentle rotation, the spring should be pulled off of the lockplate. Put it in a safe place where it won't fall to the floor.
NOTE: If the lock is of the newer lock design (like some L&R locks) there is a small link which connects the mainspring to the tumbler. Use a piece of paper and draw which way the S bend in this link is going relative to the lock. This must be put back exactly as it is. If it is reversed, it will bind up and possibly break.
On my L&R Bedford, starting from the lower crosspin, it goes up and forward somewhat like a S, not a backward S.

6. Loosen the screw holding the sear spring in place at least 3 turns.

7. Using some needle nose pliers or a knife, disengage the sear spring tab from the sideplate by pulling it outward. When the tab has cleared the slot, rotate the spring counterclockwise away from the sear.

8. Remove the sear screw and the sear.

9. (for bridled locks) (The bridle is the part that fits over the tumbler. It has a hole in it for the axel on the inner side of the tumbler.) Find the location of the fly in the tumbler and keep an eye on it. It is easily lost.

10. Remove the bridle screws. Pay special attention to the shape of the fly and which direction it is installed.
With Silar locks it has a cast pin sticking out of the side of it so you can't put it together backwards. With the L&R locks the fly is a small irregularly shaped plate on a pin. It must be reassembled in exactly the same position that you find it. If it is assembled backwards it will not work correctly. (Draw a picture of it in the tumbler).
11. Remove the hammer/cock screw.

12. Support the lockplate on two blocks (or on the top of a vise with the jaws open about 3/4 inch). Do not be tempted to pry the hammer off of the tumbler with screw drivers or anything like that. Not only will you gouge the lockplate but there is a good chanch that you will break the very hard tumbler.

13. If you have a square punch that will fit inside the square hole in the hammer use it for removing the hammer/cock. If you don't, find a steel rod that will fit down inside the threads minor diameter and bottom out in the drilled hole.
This pin should not be dead soft like a nail and it should not be very hard like a drill bit. The soft steel can deform in the bottom of the hole and become locked in place by the threads. The very hard pin can shatter from hitting it).
Using a small hammer, tap the punch or pin down so it drives the tumbler out of the hammers square drive.

14. For a Flintlock frizzen, lightly compress the spring and remove the screw holding it in place.
This is one place that locking pliers will work. Use a piece of brass sheet metal to prevent the serrated teeth on the pliers from marring the spring. Lightly compress the spring so the frizzen is free to rotate a little.
NOTE: do not compress the spring any more than you have to to release the pressure on the frizzen. If you over compress it, you may break it.

15. With the frizzen spring removed, remove the screw securing the frizzen.
Do not try to remove the wheel if there is one on the spring or frizzen.

Re-assembly should be done in the reverse order.

You may lightly tap the hammer back onto the frizzen drive, but if you can get at least three threads of the hammer screw engaged, IMO it is best to just tighten the screw to seat out the hammer on the square drives shoulders.

When you replace the sear spring, (if you removed it from the lock plate) after the sear is in place, screw the spring back on the lockplate but do not tighten the screw.
Use your thumb to push the back of the spring downward and towards the lockplate. It will bend and the tab will engage the plate's slot almost automatically. Then tighten the screw.

Don't forget the fly when you reinstall the tumblers bridle.
If you are working on a late design lock with a mainspring link, double check your sketch to make sure it is installed correctly.

The bridle screw that goes thru the sear needs to be snug but not overly tightened. If you overtighten it, the sear will not rotate freely like it needs to do to do it's job.

To remove the mainspring vise, bring the lock to the full cock position, loosen the thumbscrew and remove the vise.

IMO: You can do this job without a mainspring vise but you risk breaking the mainspring with things like locking pliers.
.Locking pliers concentrate their load all in one place rather than spreading it out like the vise does. On locks like the Davis Jeager and French fusil locks it is almost sure to break the spring (don't ask how I know).
Found this old thread while searching for wisdom/tricks on removing the short leg Davis mainspring. Just what I needed; couldn’t figure out how/where to put the mainspring vise; didn’t realize it needed to go to full cock first! Like another member said, this is going in my “user’s manual”. Thanks Zonie!
 
I was trying to inlet a lockplate to a stock and was disassembling the lock for this purpose. In doing this, I used two screwdrivers from opposing directions but managed to snap the tumbler shaft when I got too aggressive on one side. :cursing: The thing must have been beaten on with a sledge hammer when assembled. How do they expect us to build a gun without removing these parts?

The questions are:

How tight should this be?

Do you file the square shaft slightly to ease removal? (Provided you can remove it initially)

and

How do you get these off without breaking the tumbler?

CS
Disassemble the lock ., fly out of tumbler .... I put the lock.plate over my wood vice , wood jaws , tumbler down , hammer screw out ....then I get my brass rod and tap the tumbler shaft ... Hand under to catch tumbler ...no problem .... Hammer should stay tight on tumbler shaft . When reassembling I tap the hammer on tight with brass hammer
 
Actually Zonie made his post a sticky, I read it years ago when I was having trouble with an old original back-action lock with a hammer that just refused to let go of the tumbler.
It never hurts to revive some old threads as never know someone may have the same problem or a better solution to it.
Edit: BTW I made a cock/hammer puller from an old top post battery terminal puller for when I'm not going to disassemble the whole lock.
 
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